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  • CSA wins Civil War

    a question to al the Civil War experts here ( I am not one).

    what if the Confederacy had won - and possible the whole of the USA kept beeing united under Jefferson Davis as president and not Lincoln.

    what would have been different in the new CSA constitution, etc. politics, etc?

    I would assume that slavery (not the cause nor reaosn of the war anyway) would have been abolished sooner than later anyway, but would federal state have less powers? and the CSA be more a confederation of semi-independent states (in the spirit of the founding fathers) rather than a strong-federalistic governement as it became?
    "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

  • #2
    What an excellent set of questions!

    Originally posted by piero1971
    a question to al the Civil War experts here ( I am not one).
    Originally posted by piero1971
    what if the Confederacy had won - and possible the whole of the USA kept being united under Jefferson Davis as president and not Lincoln.
    Hi piero!
    Let's see what I can come up with.

    Originally posted by piero1971
    what would have been different in the new CSA constitution, etc. politics, etc?
    I don't know for sure.
    I think tax laws would have to change. Inflation was huge at the end of the war.
    Mandatory government service would possibly have been suggested.
    I'm referring to all 18 year-old males enlisting n the military for two years, or some alternate service.
    Foreign investment would bring in money too.
    I bet they would have done that.
    Sign defensive treaties with Canada, Mexico, France, Switzerland and Great Britain.
    Just in case, the United States tried some rough stuff.

    Originally posted by piero1971
    I would assume that slavery (not the cause nor reason of the war anyway) would have been abolished sooner than later anyway, but would federal state have less powers? and the CSA be more a confederation of semi-independent states (in the spirit of the founding fathers) rather than a strong-Federalist government as it became?
    I think with time, slavery would have faded away in the south.
    I think the southern states would have been able to survive and flourish, with states having more power that the central government.
    This was fun.
    Got any more questions?
    What do you think?
    Slug
    Last edited by Slug; 18 Apr 06, 19:50.
    "Advances in technology tend to overwhelm me."

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    • #3
      One of the interesting things about the CSA is that they did have a constitution. It was based upon the US constitution, but it did not abolish slavery. On the plus side, the CSA constitution included a line item veto clause for the president and it mandated a balanced budget. The CSA also leaned towards less centralized government and stronger state governments. (Except for the slavery part, sounds GREAT to me!)

      I would hope that if the CSA had had not been illegally invaded and toppled by the USA, it would have eventually rid itself of slavery. It is hard to predict though.

      Another interesting thing about the CSA is that some of the greatest wealth in the nation rested in the deep south in Miss and Louisiana. That all changed after the USA razed much of the CSA, destroying crops, cattle, buildings, etc. After the war, the CSA (South) was in deep poverty and did not really start recovering from the blow until over 100 years later.

      I could go on some more, but those are some of my thoughts.
      "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." ~ Marcus Aurelius

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Grenze
        One of the interesting things about the CSA is that they did have a constitution. It was based upon the US constitution, but it did not abolish slavery. On the plus side, the CSA constitution included a line item veto clause for the president and it mandated a balanced budget. The CSA also leaned towards less centralized government and stronger state governments. (Except for the slavery part, sounds GREAT to me!)

        I would hope that if the CSA had had not been illegally invaded and toppled by the USA, it would have eventually rid itself of slavery. It is hard to predict though.

        Another interesting thing about the CSA is that some of the greatest wealth in the nation rested in the deep south in Miss and Louisiana. That all changed after the USA razed much of the CSA, destroying crops, cattle, buildings, etc. After the war, the CSA (South) was in deep poverty and did not really start recovering from the blow until over 100 years later.

        I could go on some more, but those are some of my thoughts.


        Well said Grenze it would be interesting to see what the economies of the south would be like to day if Sherman didn't enforce scorched earth policy. The price of losing I guess.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by TY.
          Well said Grenze it would be interesting to see what the economies of the south would be like to day if Sherman didn't enforce scorched earth policy. The price of losing I guess.
          It would be interesting. Even after accounting for the total destruction of the CSA, if the CSA states formed their own country today, some say it would be one of the top twenty countries in the world in GDP. So you could say that if the CSA had not been destroyed, it would not have lost 100 years of momentum and would have been even stronger today.

          There are so many other what ifs too. What would the CSA have done in WW I & WW II? Would it have remained neutral? What if it had allied itself with Germany?

          Of course, being a loose confederacy rather than a federation, it is less likely that the CSA would have joined in on any wars other than the civil war. More likely than not, the CSA would be a peaceful, laid back nation.

          The $64,000 question deals with slavery. Slavery was endorsed in the CSA constitution. The importation of slaves was banned though. Perhaps the slave culture would have evolved away and eventually been eliminated out of the CSA. Just like in South Africa with its apartheid, its likely that international pressure and evolving standards of human rights would have caused the CSA to eventually give up slavery and treat the black people as equals rather than 3/5's human.
          "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." ~ Marcus Aurelius

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          • #6
            yup, the world would have been a better place with CSA!

            now, if the CSA would win, would the CSA/USA remain separated or the whole would reunite under CSA constitution (and capital back to Washington Dc) ?
            "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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            • #7
              Originally posted by piero1971
              yup, the world would have been a better place with CSA!

              now, if the CSA would win, would the CSA/USA remain separated or the whole would reunite under CSA constitution (and capital back to Washington Dc) ?
              But that would hav served no purpose, since it would have included the abolititionists back into a new union, bringing us right back to where we started. The South never had as an objective the reunification of the entire US under a new flag...the goal was to permit the retention of two systems without the perceived interference from the North.
              Originally posted by Grenze
              One of the interesting things about the CSA is that they did have a constitution. It was based upon the US constitution, but it did not abolish slavery...(Except for the slavery part, sounds GREAT to me!)
              It should be noted that both Constitutions permitted slavery (until the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution was passed in 1865) but only the Southern Constitution barred the importation of slaves.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by Grenze
                It would be interesting. Even after accounting for the total destruction of the CSA, if the CSA states formed their own country today, some say it would be one of the top twenty countries in the world in GDP. So you could say that if the CSA had not been destroyed, it would not have lost 100 years of momentum and would have been even stronger today. .
                Eventually, but it would have had a lot of work to do in the industrial department. I believe that the CSA would have become much more of a maritime nation than the US is today, mostly due to it's early needs of European trade, and the protection of that trade.

                Originally posted by Grenze
                There are so many other what ifs too. What would the CSA have done in WW I & WW II? Would it have remained neutral? What if it had allied itself with Germany? .
                The best scenario for the CSA to win the ACW would have been British and possibly French, intervention. With such friendly relations to go on, the CSA would have undoubtedly sided with the Triple Entente, or Allies in WWI, and again in WWII. The question would be if the USA would have sided with Germany out of a desire to redress it's greivances due to the loss of the war and the loss of such territories.

                Originally posted by Grenze
                Of course, being a loose confederacy rather than a federation, it is less likely that the CSA would have joined in on any wars other than the civil war. More likely than not, the CSA would be a peaceful, laid back nation..
                Most definitely. The CSA would have probably taken a stance of Nationalistic Isolationism, so long as international trade, it's lifeblood, was not emperiled. Much the same, in fact, as the US prior to both WWI and WWII. The CSA would have probably joined WWI from a pragmatic standpoint once the Central Powers began sinking Confederate ships and interfering with the Confederate-Allied Trade. The same would have probably sparked confederate involvement in WWII, though I believe the Confederate government, heeding Washington's warning against Entangling Alliances, would have not entered into any permanent pacts, such as the UN, or Nato, and instead entered into individual pacts between seperate and sovereign nations.

                Originally posted by Grenze
                The $64,000 question deals with slavery. Slavery was endorsed in the CSA constitution. The importation of slaves was banned though. Perhaps the slave culture would have evolved away and eventually been eliminated out of the CSA. Just like in South Africa with its apartheid, its likely that international pressure and evolving standards of human rights would have caused the CSA to eventually give up slavery and treat the black people as equals rather than 3/5's human.
                Slavery was on its way out regardless. Banning slave importation was an important, though ignorable step in banning slavery in the Confederacy. By making that a part of the Constitution, the Confederate Government committed itself to the eventual emancipation of slaves. Supposing the war had ended in late '63, I believe gradual emancipation would have begun in '70, and concluded in '90 with the full emancipation of all slaves. Equality would have probably taken until the 1960s or 70s to achieve, but would have begun to exist as free blacks learned trades and became as educated and productive as their white neighbors. Not to mention that the fragile agrarian economy of the antebellum south would have had time to retire gracefully, instead of being toppled, and the Southern plantation owners and farmers would have had time to find, or invent, more efficient farming practices, probably emphasizing machinery (after all the South was full of inventors).
                Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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                • #9
                  My personal position on the so-called "Civil War" is that the whole thing should not have happened at all.

                  The USA should NOT repeat NOT have INVADED the
                  Confederate States of America, a SOVEREIGN NATION with a CONSTITUTION and a system of government BETTER than that of the USA.

                  The whole war was messed up what with Sherman goin' crazy all over the place.
                  No American general would be allowed to do that in this day and age.

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                  • #10
                    [QUOTE=renegade_wolf]My personal position on the so-called "Civil War" is that the whole thing should not have happened at all.

                    The USA should NOT repeat NOT have INVADED the
                    Confederate States of America, a SOVEREIGN NATION with a CONSTITUTION and a system of government BETTER than that of the USA.

                    By that logic, Britain should have let the colonies go in 1775 and no one should have conquered any native american nation, nor tried to repress any "revolt" as long as the rebels had a constitution.

                    How is perpetuating rather than trying to eliminate the buying and selling of human beings a better thing?

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                    • #11
                      Harry Turteldove has writen a great series of books exploring the south winning and carrying the results through world war I and now into world war II.
                      How Few Remain, the Great War series, The Center Cannot Hold, Fighting Back, etc. cover an amazing amount of alternate history, well worth reading.

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                      • #12
                        I thought we saw how well it would have worked out with the Articles of Confederation a bit before.
                        “To discriminate against a thoroughly upright citizen because he belongs to some particular church, or because, like Abraham Lincoln, he has not avowed his allegiance to any church, is an outrage against that liberty of conscience which is one of the foundations of American life.”

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                        • #13
                          They didn't last long enough to really show long term results

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by grognard
                            Harry Turteldove has writen a great series of books exploring the south winning and carrying the results through world war I and now into world war II.
                            How Few Remain, the Great War series, The Center Cannot Hold, Fighting Back, etc. cover an amazing amount of alternate history, well worth reading.
                            with or without Aliens?
                            "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by grognard
                              They didn't last long enough to really show long term results
                              Yeah the problems were too apparent too quickly!
                              “To discriminate against a thoroughly upright citizen because he belongs to some particular church, or because, like Abraham Lincoln, he has not avowed his allegiance to any church, is an outrage against that liberty of conscience which is one of the foundations of American life.”

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