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What If Hitler Never Declared War On the U.S. After Pearl Harbor?

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  • #31
    Hitler's Declaration of War

    Guys, I really don't think Hitler's declaration of war made all that much difference.

    In my opinion, things had changed a lot since 1940 and had progressed to such a stage by the end of 1941/beginning of 1942, that the USA would have soon gone to war against Germany either way.

    IMHO, Hitler saw the USA as being pretty well firmly aligned with, and just about committed to, the Allied side. In his view, conflict with the USA was by then both inevitable and imminent. His declaration was little more than grandstanding, as if he were saying to his people and to the World at large, "Alright, you bastards - now it's out of the closet!"

    Without the declaration, some incident would almost certainly have provoked full hostility - I think, probably within 3 months and almost certainly within 6 at the absolute most. And in the meantime, the USA would have been mobilizing just as fast anyway.




    Best regards to all,
    panther3485
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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    • #32
      I'm sure there would have been some 'provacating event' that would bring the US in on the side of the Allies. Roosevelt and Churchill's relationship was too strong for FDR to not pressure the US to help either covertly or overtly and eventually just step in and announce 'we're here'. Any excuse would have worked by 1942.
      If voting could really change things, it would be illegal.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by DrömmarnasStig
        Simple:
        The Japs broke our alliance by accepting a cease-fire with the Russians, thus leaving us alone. Act of cowardice and barbarism if you ask me.

        Hitler (pressured by the Navy) dow'ed the USA. He fulfilled the conditions of the tripartite pact which Japan didn't, stupid decision.
        The USA produced more war material than every other nation combined!

        YOU CANNOT BEAT THE USA!
        I wish I could have told and convinced Hitler...

        The only problem Roosevelt had was his population. Nobody wanted war.
        He tried his best but failed. Finally he managed to lure Japan into attacking the US. Unfortunately Hitler was dumb enough to follow.
        At the time when Hitler dow'ed the US, Roosevelt didn't have the mandate to dow Germany and he never would have.
        The war would have turned out very differently if not for the intervention of the USA and their vast shipments of war material to the Soviet Union.

        Hitler's fault, no question.

        Yea right on. Roosevelt was itching for a fight, the American public was not. He set up the Pearl Harbor debacle and consequently got himself into the war which was exactly what he wanted. Whether Germany declared war or not FDR would have eventually, (He was already sending equipment to the Soviets, he had already picked sides.) It was unavoidable. It may seem a little cynical to say that FDR set up Pearl Harbor but he did (If your in doubt as to this there is a great book by Richard Maybury: WWII the rest of the story and how it effect you today, that lays it all out in addition to the rest of the war). but look where it got us, world domination.
        Last edited by Kurt Steiner; 04 Jun 06, 21:53.
        "The State is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else."

        Frederic Bastiat

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        • #34
          I dont know much about the theory that FDR had prior knowledge of Pearl Harbour but it's obvious that he wanted in on the war. I think for this scenario to have taken place,Roosevelt would have to have been unseated in 1940.
          Delegate, MN GOP.

          PATRIA SI, COMUNISMO NO

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          • #35
            Originally posted by SGT Long
            I dont know much about the theory that FDR had prior knowledge of Pearl Harbour but it's obvious that he wanted in on the war. I think for this scenario to have taken place,Roosevelt would have to have been unseated in 1940.
            Maybe there just happened to be only obsolete ships in Pearl Harbour while the precious Carriers and modern ships coincidently were somewhere safe.

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            • #36
              Japan DID consider attacking the Soviet Union and thus assisting the Germans. But after analysis of operation Barbarossa, the Japanese considered that the Germans could take care of the Soviets on their own and thus decided to turn their attention to the Pacific. Unfortunately for the Germans, Stalins right hand man Richard Zorge found this out and reported to Stalin. This convinced Stalin to move Siberian and Far Eastern troops to the Western front (from their perspective).

              But the main point here is that the Japanese did consider assisting the Germans, they just though the Germans were capable enough to handle the USSR on their own. Also, I doubt they would be of much use considering their equipment which was ment for island and jungle warfare and certainly not fitting for mayor offensives in European style.
              "Beneath its gilded beauty, though, there lies a poorly designed game which rewards the greedy and violent, and punishes the hardworking and honest; and if you think about it, that's a good representation of capitalism" - Nightfreeze about Eve Online

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              • #37
                Japan was also wary after the bloody nose the soviets gave them at Nomahan. They really didn't want to take on the Russians again.

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                • #38
                  While the theory about Roosvelt knowledge of Pearl Harbor Raaid is fascinating it has never been substantiated. And about calling the battleline of the Pacific Fleet obsolete it is a little out of place. They were the best battlewagon in us inventory (the newer South Dakotas were still in construction) and the carrier at the time were still condiered by all (navy and white house included) a precious addition to the fleet, but not the main striking force. And with the carriers in port there was the real possibility that at least half of the force (carrier+battlewagons) was out of the harbor as Admiral Kimmel was uesd toi do in the previous months.

                  In addition no one was really aware of the raid beacuse it was something completetely different from the basic (and aknowledged) Japanese navy doctrine of the time (and in some a way in part a strategic blunder).

                  What it's proven is that Roosevelt was itching for a fight with germany trying to provoke a casus belli with every available means, but only with Germany. With Japan his policy was less clear, but, instead that aiming to a casus belli, it was apparently aimed in bullying Tokyo to neutrality and tehre are ample proofs that he wasn't aware of the effects of the oil embargo on Japanese industry and operations in china.
                  the real credit goes to the little ARVN soldier. He is just tremendous, just magnificent. He stood in there, took all that fire and gave it back. General James F. Hollingsworth USA.

                  Bomben, Bomben, Bomben auf Hamasland!

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                  • #39
                    Here is an interesting thought, say Roosevelt did not immediately declare war on Hitler and went with a 'Japan First' strategy and successfully eliminated Japan's capability to wage war by early 1945. Lets say war with Germans started in 1942 or 1943 but was restricted to bombing actions and minor engagememts in Africa. Do you think that Truman would have used the atomic bomb against the Germans?

                    Personally, I don't think he would have used the bomb against a European state. Even if it meant a longer war.
                    There cannot be a crisis next week. My schedule is already full. -Henry Kissinger

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                    • #40
                      Three points. 1) A Japan first strategy could have finished Japan before 45, we would have troops on Japanese soil long before the a-bomb was ready.
                      2) Lack of forces in ETO/MTO would have made the British and Russians take different approaches. The Brits might have tried Churchill's Balkan strategy. The Soviets would have reacted to that by increasing the attacks in the south, not the center or north.
                      3) The Soviets would have reacted to the A-bomb by increasing their pressure against Germany. Truman's choice might have been A-bomb or "letting" the Russians get beyond Berlin.

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                      • #41
                        I think we would eventually declare battle on them.

                        U-Boats were shooting at US boats which could be a reason and a reason that Japan is allied with Germany and Britain is even fighting Japan. The Axis pact thing or whatever! FDR could syt they are the same enemy and fighting one is fighting both.
                        yeah!

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                        • #42
                          FDR could say it, but convincing the public and congress is another thing entirely. Unlike Hitler, FDR could not declare war and make the country accept it or else.

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                          • #43
                            America was involved in the European side of WW2 long before Japan hit Pearl Harbour and dragged Germany into WW2 with the US.

                            American planes were being supplied to the RAF via Canada but due to the 'Nuetrality Act" were flown up the Canadain border and towed across by tractors , lots of film evidence on this, USN ships were already doing convoy duty in the North Atlantic and I believe one was sunk off of Newfoundland in about 1941 ( Rueben James I think )...US personel were already serving in the RAF in Eagle Squdron ( my uncle was engineering officer with them ) ..US personel were serving in the Brit Army but pretending to be Canadains ....So even though the poltitical party of the German/ American Bund and personel like Lindburgh and Joe Kennedy were pro German and attempting to sway America to the side of Adolf mnay had other thoughts and voted such with their feet.

                            per ardua ad astra

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