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  • no Hitler in post ww1 period

    Here is a what if I'd like to have your opinion on.

    Let's assume Hitler is out of the game - let's say he got hit by a british shell during the war, or that he succeeded in passing his entrance to the Vienna beaux-arts and went on quietly to became a succesfull, albeit only moderately talented artist.

    Germany's Weimar republic slowly recovers despite the left and right wing extremist's riots around the country. General Hindenburg is president and choses a governement of national unity instead of that bunch of beer-hall lunatics led by Göring and Röhm...

    in the 30's Germany recovers from economic recession and claims that the Versailles treaty was unfair and seeks British and Italian diplomatic help in restoring Germany to it's natural frontiers - with high anxiety of France, Poland and Czech.

    What would have happenned?

    I think it woudl be probably that France would have accepted German claims on it's eastern lands if Germany accepted to renounce once and for all to Alsace and Lorraine. Britain would not have accepted too much risks of war and would probably have asked Poland to play nice and probably would not have guaranteed Polish territorial integrity.
    italy, however, would not have liked to see Germany get more ambitions towards Austria nor the Sudeten, and so probably Germany's only ambition would be against Poland

    perhaps a limited war then in what, 1940? 1942? between Germany and Poland... but because of the more limited rearmament, a much less mechanized and weaponized Germany? but with limited objectives... (Danzig and Pomerania)
    w

    what do you think?
    "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

  • #2
    Interesting thoughts. Personally, I imagine that if Hitler had not risen to power someone else would have.

    I honestly don't see anoything but an authoritarian government coming out of Germany post-Weimar.

    Perhaps Italy would have supported a facist party there, and another famous Nazi would have instead taken power. Or perhaps the army would have staged a coup.


    My my, an original Hiter! And in mint condition, I see! Amazing. How's about $5.00 for it? Ok, fine, $5.50. It's barely worth it, but your a good salesman.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by daemonofdecay
      Interesting thoughts. Personally, I imagine that if Hitler had not risen to power someone else would have.

      I honestly don't see anoything but an authoritarian government coming out of Germany post-Weimar.

      Perhaps Italy would have supported a facist party there, and another famous Nazi would have instead taken power. Or perhaps the army would have staged a coup.
      Hitler had a charisma that few have and even fewer had his oratory skills. Only Hitler could have 'sold' Nazism to the Germans just as only Churchill could have inspired Britain to fight on in 1940. I think that Weimar would have collapsed though, maybe followed by a brief Communist administration before the army stepped in.
      Signing out.

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      • #4
        If the Nazis wouldnt have risen to power, the second strongest party would....the communists
        "Beneath its gilded beauty, though, there lies a poorly designed game which rewards the greedy and violent, and punishes the hardworking and honest; and if you think about it, that's a good representation of capitalism" - Nightfreeze about Eve Online

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        • #5
          or another right-wing nationalistic (but not anti-jew and warmongering) party... hence my idea that a nationalistic non-nazi Germany in the 30's woudl have probably asked for renegotiation of the Versailles treaty and that the other western nations might (or not) have agreed with a treaty fo Germany forgoeing it's claims on Alsace and Lorraine agaisnt France and Britain agreeing not to intervene in case of a war against Poland.

          but with not agressive militarization of Germany under Hitler, what and when would a war with Poland happen, if at all, and what forces in presence would it harness?
          "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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          • #6
            Germany would have rearmed. They were already violating the treaty in the late 1920's by their training and experiments in Russia which would have continued longer without a Hitler. And here were the seeds for the mechanization and air components of future war--that would not have been avoided.

            Some authoritarian government would have risen on the theme of the greatness of the German people and their rightful place in the world. This would be necessary as a distractor form the economic issues.

            While there may have been no treaty with Soviet Russia, there may have been an accomodation that would not have had Germany invading Russia. In fact, Germany would have tried for many of Hitler's gains through diplomacy, much like the Bismark period.
            Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Tom Phoenix
              If the Nazis wouldnt have risen to power, the second strongest party would....the communists
              Fear of Communism was very strong though. It's an issue that united the Right and even the Centre of German politics. Hitler exploited it to finally abolish any pretence of democracy that the Nazi regime maintained.
              Signing out.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Full Monty
                Fear of Communism was very strong though. It's an issue that united the Right and even the Centre of German politics. Hitler exploited it to finally abolish any pretence of democracy that the Nazi regime maintained.
                True.....but the Communists still had great power and threatened to take over control in Germany. But yes, their success would be doubtful.
                "Beneath its gilded beauty, though, there lies a poorly designed game which rewards the greedy and violent, and punishes the hardworking and honest; and if you think about it, that's a good representation of capitalism" - Nightfreeze about Eve Online

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Tom Phoenix
                  True.....but the Communists still had great power and threatened to take over control in Germany. But yes, their success would be doubtful.
                  Arguably their best chance came in 1919 with Germany in total disorder. Like the Nazis their appeal grew during the period of economic crisis in the early thirties. Unlike the Nazis they could not join with their less extreme left-wing political contemporaries.

                  What I could envision for thirties Germany in this timeline would be a right-wing 'Government of National Unity' formed under the likes of Franz von Papen. Whilst not 'authoritarian' in the way the Nazis were they would probably grant themselves sweeping 'emergency' powers that would subvert the democratic process. If a more dynamic president could be found after the death of Hindenburg then this state of affairs could become permanent. Alternatively, might there be a return of a monarchy (limited of course), perhaps the third son of the English George V?
                  Signing out.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong
                    In fact, Germany would have tried for many of Hitler's gains through diplomacy, much like the Bismark period.
                    I'd question the feasibility of this. Bismarck must rate as one of the shrewdest political operators of all time with his skill both in domestic and foreign affairs. I think the Anschluss would be as far as it could be taken without some kind of military action (or the threat of). The Czechs needed the Sudetenland for security and the Poles needed Danzig to avoid being land-locked.
                    Signing out.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tom Phoenix
                      True.....but the Communists still had great power and threatened to take over control in Germany. But yes, their success would be doubtful.
                      Originally posted by Full Monty
                      Arguably their best chance came in 1919 with Germany in total disorder. Like the Nazis their appeal grew during the period of economic crisis in the early thirties. Unlike the Nazis they could not join with their less extreme left-wing political contemporaries.
                      The fighting between 1919-1923 pretty much broke the power of the communists in Germany throughout the 1920s and the Rechwehr made a point of basing the army in smaller cities and towns to deliberately limit their exposure to left-wing influences. While there was a resurgence of communist support with the onset of the Great Depression, I would submit that the overall conservative nature of German society and the anti-communist leaning of the Reichwehr would have allowed limited room for a communist government to take power. I would think there would have been a better chance for a right-wing government backed by the military and great frustration over the border situation with Czechosovakia and Poland.
                      The Purist

                      Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by The Purist
                        I would think there would have been a better chance for a right-wing government backed by the military and great frustration over the border situation with Czechosovakia and Poland.
                        Considering how aghast the German military leadership was over Hitler's gambles, I don't think they would have readily sought a war path.
                        Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Tom Phoenix
                          If the Nazis wouldnt have risen to power, the second strongest party would....the communists
                          Honestly, after the Russian revolution, the Spanish Civil war and riots all over Europe, comunism looked more frightening than the Nazis (at least to the conceratists that where running Europe at the time). The Cold War was just posponed a few years because of the world war.
                          "The secret of war lies in the communications" - Napoleon Bonaparte

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong
                            Considering how aghast the German military leadership was over Hitler's gambles, I don't think they would have readily sought a war path.
                            The frustration I speak of would have been political rather than mililtary. Iirc, the Danzig question was never far from the surface throughout th mid-20s and into the 30s and the Reichwehr (at least pre-1935) was very concerned over the 20 Czech and 30 Polish divisions. I doubt there would have been a WWII launched by Germany,...a move by the USSR in the mid/late 40s seems more likely.
                            The Purist

                            Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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                            • #15
                              Actually, I just read about this scenario in a book I'm reading called What If?

                              Hitler's Bavarian Reserve Regiment was thrown in the Ypres HOLE in WW1 just in time to meet the British rushing to fill the gap the Germans had formed. His regiment took enormous casualties. Altho' we don't know if the future Fuehrer was involved directly, many/some historians believe that he was there. Given the casualties, its astonishing that he survived, so your scenario is definately believable.

                              Like many others, I suspect a German nationalist would have taken over...but not the Commies -- with or without Hitler, they were finished in the 20s and 30s. I suspect Ludendorff would have followed Hindenburg in the presidency. After that, it's hard to tell.
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