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Would Germany have won WWII if Italy had not joined?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by piero1971
    by the way, this option would be great to play in a operationsl game...
    Yep
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    • #17
      Everyone seams to agree that Italy not joining the war could not have hurt Germany, but how much would it have helped?

      Would the Soviet Union be destroyed?

      Would England be invaded?

      Would the USA join the European War or just fight Japan?

      Would Germay win the war or still lose in the end?

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      • #18
        It occurs to me that withouth the med distraction, the allies would have a lot of combat power and sea lift available. Maybe they retake Norway in 1941 or 1942. That would really screw Germany over given that most of its iron ore comes from Sweden via Narvik. It would also secure the Murmansk convoy route.

        No iron=> no steel => no panzers or uboats => Russians take Berlin in spring 44

        You might also see commonwealth expeditionary force in Russia, given that they are not needed in Egypt.

        The biggest problem with no African campaign for the allies is that the US army doesn't get blooded in Tunisia and so they still have lots to learn when the invasion comes.

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        • #19
          Just to add to Adrian's list of possibilities:-

          A larger RAF and RN presence in SE Asia deters the Japanese from attacking. Or leads to a catastrophe as four RN Battleships and three Carriers are sunk off the coast of Malaya in an air-strike.

          The US decides on a 'Japan First' strategy and forces a surrender in 1943!

          A Commonwealth Army meets the Wehrmacht in the Balkans in 1941 and is destroyed in a bloody three week battle. 'Barbarossa' is postponed until 1942.
          Signing out.

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          • #20
            I don't think the Germans would have won had Italy not entered the war, but I do think that I don't think that Germany would have outright lost either.

            Jeff

            Originally posted by Engineer 1888
            I personally think it would depend on how Germany's plans changed. The Italians forced Hitler to invade the Balkans and send the Africa Corps to Africa. This gave Hitler less time and troops to attack Russia with in 1941 but kept many British Divisions in Egypt that otherwise would most likely be fighting somewhere closer to Germany. Also the Italian navy kept many British warships in the Mediteranian. So Germany might have beaten Russia in 1941 but might have had to fight the British somewhere in Europe at the same time.

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            • #21
              Considering that Germany consistently got out-produced - it seems highly unlikely that anything like this would make that big of a difference.

              I mean the question might as well be - if Hitler was not an idiot or if Nazism not rely so much on sychophantism, would ... win?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by trauth116

                I mean the question might as well be - if Hitler was not an idiot or if Nazism not rely so much on sychophantism, would ... win?
                Nazi sycophancy was a direct product of Hilter's 'method' of rule whereby Darwinistic theories of 'survival of the fittest' were applied to the political systen under him. So his subordinates created their own little 'empires' wasting resources in unnecessary duplication of tasks as well as fighting each other for Hitler's attention and more resources.

                Take Hitler out of the equation and Germany might have sneaked a victory in the war ....... but there probably would not have been a war at all without Hitler - at least not as we know it anyway.
                Signing out.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Full Monty
                  Take Hitler out of the equation and Germany might have sneaked a victory in the war ....... but there probably would not have been a war at all without Hitler - at least not as we know it anyway.
                  yes.
                  no Hitler...
                  the Germano-Polish war of 1942-1943, Germany gets back Danzig and some parts of Silesia under SDN aprooval
                  Germany build first nuclear weapon in 1960
                  Germany send the first man to the moon in 1965
                  Germany sponsors with UK and France a European Community
                  USA stays isolationists`?
                  All nations keep colonisation?
                  "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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                  • #24
                    The US would have become a power in the Pacific following Pearl Harbour.

                    The British 'Retreat From Empire' (and the French) would have been a much longer process.

                    I must come up with a 'No Hitler' timeline
                    Signing out.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Full Monty
                      I must come up with a 'No Hitler' timeline
                      There already is one.

                      It's called 'Command & Conquer: Red Alert'.



                      Oh noes tannk rush!!1!!!eleven!1

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by daemonofdecay
                        There already is one.

                        It's called 'Command & Conquer: Red Alert'.



                        Oh noes tannk rush!!1!!!eleven!1
                        Yes, I was trying to avoid that.
                        Signing out.

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