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  • Fatih and Friends in Frankfurt

    [I hope my friend Fatih will forgive me for using his name for this thread. My apologies Fatih, if you are offended by this -- Janos]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Vienna

    In 1529, a Turkish Army fresh from sweeping across the Balkans, surrounded Vienna with an eye toward sacking it and moving westward. However, the stress of the march and the walls of the city made the job too tough for his tough, tough army and they were defeated.

    Losses were extraordinary on both sides. Huge tracts of Austria were depopulated and the Turks rolled back into Hungary.

    What if Suleiman's men had held their health, or if the walls had been betrayed?

    The city taken and sacked, what happens next? Do the Turks go to Frankfurt for some shopping on the Main? How about the Seine?
    Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
    Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


    "Never pet a burning dog."

    RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:
    http://www.mormon.org
    http://www.sca.org
    http://www.scv.org/
    http://www.scouting.org/

  • #2
    That's a really interesting what if, Jeff. And believe me I am far from being offended.

    Because of the heavy rain, Sultan Suleiman (or the Maghnificent as Europeans used to call him), had to leave his heavy artillery behind. Turkish historians are all allied on this, as the main effecting factor of the failed Siege of Vienna. In fact, there was nothing to prevent the Ottoman Army from capturing the city on a good wather.

    Why did the Ottomans want to get that city?

    Because Austrian Empire was a threat for Ottoman policies in Balkans. They had to be knocked out. That would be a disaster for Western Europe.
    If Vienna would have fallen, Europe would have fallen too. Or they thought so.
    But did the Ottomans think the same way?

    The conquest policy of Ottoman Empire was not to control as much land as she could but to have as much political pressure as she could on empires in Europe. The premiere policy of the Ottoman empire was to prevent the Europeans unite each other. Sultans always secretly supported enemies. Ongoing fight in Europe meant a weaker Europe which is far from threatening the Ottoman Empire.
    Danube River was considered as a natural border for Ottomans. All their land beyond this river was expendible. They frequently threatened Europe with small scale attacks. Ottoman Empire didn't want to get beyond Danube.
    They did it 2 times, and they failed in both in same place. In fact, first time was not a defeat. Sultan Suleiman successfully pulled his army back. But the second time ended with a retreat which would last 300 years.

    What if armies of Sultan Suleiman seized the city of Vienna?

    I think they would get some more strategically important places in west but they would not go far west.
    Let's think they decided to go further. There was nothing to stop them reach the Atlantic, I think. I don't know much about the military power of European nations of that time so can't make a detailed guess about who would have stopped them. But I am sure, only a united European army would have stopped them. If they were stopped, they would probably be rolled back into Austria or maybe Hungary. If they wouldn't have been stopped, they would slow down or totally stop the cultural revolution which was started by Reneissance. They would fight against Britain for domination over Europe.
    In fact an "Ottoman Europe" is a study of sociology more than history. So I can not make healthy comments on this subject.

    Regards
    Fatih
    "A nation which makes the final sacrifice for life and freedom does not get beaten." - Mustafa Kemal ATATURK

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by fatih
      That's a really interesting what if, Jeff. And believe me I am far from being offended.
      Glad to hear it!
      Originally posted by fatih
      Danube River was considered as a natural border for Ottomans. All their land beyond this river was expendible.
      So if they had continued to the west, eventually the border may have reached Regensburg and Ulm in southern Germany*, but probably no further. I doubt they would have felt it worthwhile to cross the Alps, so the Swiss and Italians would have been safe, as well as Upper Austria.
      Originally posted by fatih
      I don't know much about the military power of European nations of that time so can't make a detailed guess about who would have stopped them. But I am sure, only a united European army would have stopped them.
      Well, the next stop on that train ride would be the Holy Roman Empire of the German People, which is pretty much a United Europe: all of modern-day Germany, Elsass-Lothringen, Czech Republic, Austria, and Northern Italy. "Royal Hungary" (that part not taken by the Turks and not in Transyvania) and Poland probably would have joined in, but not the far western nations (France, Spain, England, etc.).

      I can almost imagine the Siege of Passau, where Europe and Turkey meet and see whose going to run things from then on!

      Great info in your post -- a very enjoyable read.

      * Putting me near the border, since I live near Regensburg.
      Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
      Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


      "Never pet a burning dog."

      RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:
      http://www.mormon.org
      http://www.sca.org
      http://www.scv.org/
      http://www.scouting.org/

      Comment


      • #4
        a very interesting reply Fatih. I belive that is indeed the difference.

        a bigger difference would be an Ottoman victory at Lepanto naval battle.. what if, say the Venetian and Spanish fleets were defeated or scattered by bad weather.. and unable to fight a cohesive and victorious battle.

        the Ottoman turks would have had a more open hand in the Adriatic and eastern and central mediterranean. an ottoman invasion of Sicily and southern Italy, up to Naples would be plausible.
        "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by piero1971
          a very interesting reply Fatih. I belive that is indeed the difference.

          a bigger difference would be an Ottoman victory at Lepanto naval battle.. what if, say the Venetian and Spanish fleets were defeated or scattered by bad weather.. and unable to fight a cohesive and victorious battle.

          the Ottoman turks would have had a more open hand in the Adriatic and eastern and central mediterranean. an ottoman invasion of Sicily and southern Italy, up to Naples would be plausible.
          Interesting thoughts, Piero. I'm weak on the Naval side of things and would never have thought of maneuevering around the Alps by sea.
          Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
          Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


          "Never pet a burning dog."

          RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:
          http://www.mormon.org
          http://www.sca.org
          http://www.scv.org/
          http://www.scouting.org/

          Comment


          • #6
            indeed, another place where the Ottoman were frustrated was Malta a "gate" to the western mediterranean.... Ottoman and barbary coast's "pirates" raids did severe damage to Italian "marrittime republics" (Genoa, Venice, Pisa), Spanish and Napolitan merchantshipping as well as coastal spots. if you visit the towns on the Adriatic sea as well as most mediterranean, they are all fortified (and very beautifull) to prevent just those sort of attacks.

            as Fatih remarked, one has to look at the strange alliance between France and the Sultan over the years, Francois Ier was one of the only sovereigns in the 15th and 16th century to greet a Turkish delegation and suggested an alliance agaisnt Charles V's Spain and Habsburg Austria...


            a good computer game is Europa Universalis to simulate play in the Mediterranean in the 14th to 16th century.. very stimulating and challenging times for control and supremacy over the med, which was, before it shifted to the Atlantic - and now to the Pacifi, the center of world's trade and finance.
            "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

            Comment


            • #7
              Thanks for your interesting thoughts Piero.

              In fact Ottoman Empire once tried to invade Italy. They first captured Otranto in Southern Italy. They succesfully expanded the bridgehead by seizing some strategically important castles. They were going to send an army from the Northern Italy and smash the Italian forces. That would have been a greater danger for European civilization. Because Sultan Mehmet would take Vatican under his own control just like the Orthodox Church in Istanbul.

              But Turkish expeditionary force returned home because of the sudden death of Sultan Mehmet 2.(Many historians still believed that he was poisoned by his personal doctor Yakub(Jacob) Pasha who was a Venetian spy. This hasn't been proved yet.

              Regards
              Fatih
              "A nation which makes the final sacrifice for life and freedom does not get beaten." - Mustafa Kemal ATATURK

              Comment


              • #8
                OK, I'm on new ground here...and loving it! double-
                Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
                Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


                "Never pet a burning dog."

                RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:
                http://www.mormon.org
                http://www.sca.org
                http://www.scv.org/
                http://www.scouting.org/

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Janos
                  Interesting thoughts, Piero. I'm weak on the Naval side of things and would never have thought of maneuevering around the Alps by sea.
                  Typical of the army. Anything bigger then a river and they loose interest.
                  Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by tsar
                    Typical of the army. Anything bigger then a river and they loose interest.
                    What's a river?
                    Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
                    Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


                    "Never pet a burning dog."

                    RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:
                    http://www.mormon.org
                    http://www.sca.org
                    http://www.scv.org/
                    http://www.scouting.org/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Janos
                      Well, the next stop on that train ride would be the Holy Roman Empire of the German People, which is pretty much a United Europe: all of modern-day Germany, Elsass-Lothringen, Czech Republic, Austria, and Northern Italy. "Royal Hungary" (that part not taken by the Turks and not in Transyvania) and Poland probably would have joined in...
                      Well first the Germans have to stop fighting themselfs as the Holy Roman Empire was thorn by religius and social unrest caused by Martin Luther and Reformation, in 1524-1525 there were Peasant's War which was sinked in blood of 100 000 insurgents,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peasants%27_War

                      The King of Spain Chrles V and king of Austria Maximilian although brothers were unable to even cordinate defence of Vienna not to speak join action against Turks, the king of France Francois I even admited Turkish fleet to Tulon, opening mechet in city in this mess of European affeirs the Turkish invasion could cut throu like a hot knife throu buter, if ofcours the rains which halted famous turkish heavy artilary would not saved the old fortifications of Vienna, much meager than walls of Constantinopole
                      Kosovo is Serbian.
                      I support United Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
                      Behead those who say Islam is violent!

                      Comment

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