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Could Spain have entered World War 2?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by GameGeezer
    Somebody needs to try playing as Spain and then joining the Axis in a game of Hearts of Iron 2. Tell us how it turns out.
    Thats not a bad idea. HoI2 is probably one of the most realistic games ive ever saw. This makes me want to get HoI2 again
    "Beneath its gilded beauty, though, there lies a poorly designed game which rewards the greedy and violent, and punishes the hardworking and honest; and if you think about it, that's a good representation of capitalism" - Nightfreeze about Eve Online

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    • #47
      Ahh ok well I finally figured it out -- it is all about generational awareness.

      The game I was referring to -a board game: http://paizo.com/store/games/cardBoa.../v5748btpy76ou (this one also has scenarios on a German invasion of Spain, the Spanish OoB during WWII -as well as mobilization schedules, and iirc aslo a scenario where the Allies can invade neutral Spain instead of French North Africa.

      hexes at approx 25 km across-- and units are mostly Divisional level and below- mostly below I think for the Spanish Civil War, air units reperesnet air groups of about 50 planes.

      What I can't understan though - is how one day - I get the statement "you can't always trust games" -and to be completely honest -there is no comparison of a board game of this nature and detail - to a RTS game.

      I'm glad you guys have decided to experiment (really that is what questions like this are all about) - although really, there are games with higher levels of detail out there as well.

      Case in point: Spain -actually the entire peninsula - used a wider gauge track set up for their railroads. If invading Spain -these rail lines would be converted -barring relying solely on captured rolling stock.

      I'm intrested enough that time permitting I will try to find a ToE for some Spanish units - however iirc the Spanish Army was largely an infantry force with some cavalry the horse variety) -and a couple of tank units - these may have been brigade sized - I doubt they used anything heavier than a Panzer II - until the German French occupation force was able to establish contact with Spain. Spain also had - iirc some light cruisers - but the navy was not much more than a coastal defense force.

      Oh yeh - before I forget there is a book out there that touches on this and other Euro neutrals during WWII - called Neither Friend nor Foe - you might find it interesting.
      Last edited by trauth116; 03 Mar 06, 19:09.

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      • #48
        Well, allright I apologise. I got too excited on the idea of HoI2

        HoI2 is a preety realistic game and I think it would show things better then board games. However, yes it still doesnt mean it would go that way as HoI2 would show it.

        The best indicator about what would happen are the facts and ones imagination.
        "Beneath its gilded beauty, though, there lies a poorly designed game which rewards the greedy and violent, and punishes the hardworking and honest; and if you think about it, that's a good representation of capitalism" - Nightfreeze about Eve Online

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        • #49
          Well, yes the Spanish navy wasnt so big but sure more than a coastal one, you can found some mothern cruisers and old ones, destroyers, submarines, PT boats, etc, about the armored forces the more present models was the soviet T26, BT5, german PzI, italians cv32 (different models) and some spanish models.

          The really thing that can be taken from the Spanis Army was a trained Army after 4 years of war, I think more trained an better than the Italians, you also can see the resolt of the battle of Guadalajara were the Italians made a big assault to flank Madrid with his best units and they were defeated by the Republican army with kess equipement and supply, well this is only a sample of what I mean, you can faund lot more.

          If any of you are interested we are near to finish and publishing our SCW tactical game "A las Barricadas" (To the Barricades) and here you can donwload the VASSAL version of the demo: http://www.vassalengine.org/communit...&module_id=273 but if you like to download, print and do your shelf, click this link:http://personal.telefonica.terra.es/web/nicolaseskubi/

          Best
          Niko

          Best
          Niko

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          • #50
            Let's get back to the original question: could Spain have entered WW2?

            Certainly they could have entered, but I don't think that after their Civil War they would have been capable of sustaining forces in the field far from home. I also feel they would have been a draw on the Axis in order to sustain what they had.
            Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
            Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


            "Never pet a burning dog."

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            • #51
              I think no, Spain after 4 years of war, the situation of the country wasnt a good one to enter in another war, this would be different if the war was only agains the Soviet Union (fascist vs comunist).

              The dictator Franco wants the N Africa territories to start another "Spanish Empire" this was his condition before go to the war like a Axis allied ans Hitler said no, thta can make lot of problems, starting with the Bichi France.

              And another problem for the dictator was if he enters in the WW2 like Axis allied, means that can lose his position like "Caudillo" of Spain and the finish of his fascist dictatorship, and ofcourse all the spanish republicans would support the Allied agains Franco, you can found lot of spanish fighting with the Allied and they did very well.

              The "Blau Division" was another history, supose was a volunteers Fascist Division to fight the comunist but lot of them was republicans POWs forced to go like "volunteers" to save his parents form the Franco´s vengeance.

              Best
              Niko

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Janos
                Let's get back to the original question: could Spain have entered WW2?

                Certainly they could have entered, but I don't think that after their Civil War they would have been capable of sustaining forces in the field far from home. I also feel they would have been a draw on the Axis in order to sustain what they had.
                Yes, if not for Canaris' "treason" against his country, Spain would have entered.

                One can argue about the aftermath. Spanish troops would not have been required to operate far from home however; the single fact that Gibralter would have been untenable would have caused the British serious problems in the western Med. Ultimately, the allied landings {Torch} could have meet much more serious resistance from a Vichy afraid of losing territory to Franco if it didn't fight, and the allies would have had a serious fight with seasoned Spanish units, not being able to bypass Spanish Morroco on the way to Tunisa.

                The theory that the longer coastline to Europe would have served the allies well is false. Landings in Spain -- as opposed to France -- would have faced the same uphill logistical battle that allied forces did in Italy. France was always the most direct route to the heart of the Reich.

                VM

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by E_Von_Manstein
                  The theory that the longer coastline to Europe would have served the allies well is false. Landings in Spain -- as opposed to France -- would have faced the same uphill logistical battle that allied forces did in Italy. France was always the most direct route to the heart of the Reich.

                  VM
                  There would have been no reason for an allied landing in Spain -- they could have landed in France 2x as they did and isolated the Spanish (and any other axis troops stuck there) south of the Pyranees.
                  Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
                  Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


                  "Never pet a burning dog."

                  RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:
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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Janos
                    There would have been no reason for an allied landing in Spain -- they could have landed in France 2x as they did and isolated the Spanish (and any other axis troops stuck there) south of the Pyranees.

                    Absolutely. But I have seen those who suggest that if Spain came into the war it would put the Germans at an immediate disadvantage because Spain would have been "an easy landing" compared to the Atlantic Wall in France.

                    I'm not sure that by landing in France the allies would be able to "isolate" forces to the south. Could allied forces really advance with a large force in their rear? Indeed, maybe they could simply screen them off, but it wouldn't be as simply as having the coast (and England only) at your back as you advanced toward Germany.

                    VM

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                    • #55
                      I don't recall ever using the word 'immediate'.

                      I do recall using the term that it would require some pretty hefty commitments to garrison against landings - and that imo the Spanish Army would never have been remotely adequate to do this (this is a new part though - without significant German commitment as well).

                      I will also go on the record and state flat out that point and click real time strategy games are far less reliable than dedicated operational level wargames when modelling the technicalities involved in defending the Iberian peninsula.

                      The problems that the Axis with Spain would involve is that aside from needing forces committed to garrisoning the French coastline -now you have something like 4x as mich additional coastline to garrison in addition to France- which would be a defensive commitment that could not be igmored -otherwise - if that is done -you have the geographic equivalent of a pocket formed out of the entire Iberian peninsula.

                      Rail lines are good for strategic movements -but rapid force redelpyments to shore up a defense can be a little less efficient.

                      Now again - I will also say -there is no way that Stalin stands pat if the Germans blow off garrisoning their Eastern borders.

                      Basically what this amounts to - is a race against time -to cap all North Africa and drive the Western Allies far enough South to prevent French North Africa to be used as a massive staging ground against a now much more accesible SW Europe. All the while - pushing as hard as possible to the East in order to eliminate the Allied presence in Egypt and the Middle East.

                      What I am saying is that it would have been a radically different war; - but in no ways would a Spanish entry mean an easier war for the Axis.

                      Caveat: - of course all this is specuilation based upon a military and geographic analysis of infrastructure and ports, no one ever can prove anything.
                      Last edited by trauth116; 10 Apr 06, 20:55.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by E_Von_Manstein
                        I'm not sure that by landing in France the allies would be able to "isolate" forces to the south. Could allied forces really advance with a large force in their rear? Indeed, maybe they could simply screen them off, but it wouldn't be as simply as having the coast (and England only) at your back as you advanced toward Germany.
                        It depends on how large a force it was and its composition. I suspect any major German forces would have been withdrawn following Normandy and Torch to defend the Fatherland, leaving Spanish troops and perhaps a few others -- not a major threat given allied air dominance. We had no problem leaving Germans north of Germany -- I doubt we'd have a problem leaving them (or their allies) south of France.
                        Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
                        Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


                        "Never pet a burning dog."

                        RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:
                        http://www.mormon.org
                        http://www.sca.org
                        http://www.scv.org/
                        http://www.scouting.org/

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                        • #57
                          Though if spain would have joined the Axis they would have acces to the gibraltear strait which might of been the turning point in the Africa campaign because no where near as many Allied ships could have entered and sunk the German and Italian supply ships to Rommel

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