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  • Allied What-ifs

    Everyone always does what ifs as what could Germany have done to win the war? I would like to take a different track and ask what could the Allies have done that would have lost them the war?

    My personal favorite is what if Lord Halifax had been selected to be PM instead of Churchill?
    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

  • #2
    Russia: Not moving it's industry East of the Urals.
    USA/Britain: Not implemening convoys, escort carriers, and long range naval aircraft.
    If you can't set a good example, be a glaring warning.

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    • #3
      America deciding it was "A European War" and sitting it out, or not doing Lend-Lease, or supporting the Russkies.
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      • #4
        Chamberlain's administration starting rearmament a year later and/or cutting back the programmes because of the prevailing economic conditions.
        Signing out.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Full Monty
          Chamberlain's administration starting rearmament a year later and/or cutting back the programmes because of the prevailing economic conditions.
          What do you think would have happened if Chamberlain remained in office, rather than Churchill?
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          • #6
            This is really more of a possible change in circumstance, rather than a conscious decision…

            What if Lexington and Enterprise had returned to Pearl on Saturday 6 December 1941?
            --No raids by Halsey on Marshall Islands in early 1942.
            --No aggressive patrolling in the Coral Sea in early 1942.
            --No Battle of the Coral Sea...Port Moresby falls...IJN completes airfields on Guadalcanal.
            --No Doolittle Raid.
            --Probably no naval battle for Midway...Midway may have even been abandoned.
            --No Solomon’s offensive in summer of 1942.

            With only Saratoga on the west coast, those first few months would have been much darker than they were. Yorktown, Wasp and Ranger were in the Atlantic and Hornet was still in shake down; Essex would not be launched until mid ’42 and the keel had just been laid for the second Essex Class (Yorktown II). If we had lost Enterprise and Lexington at Pearl, would we have risked Wasp in the Mediterranean to deliver RAF fighters to Malta? Would we have launched Torch in North Africa in November 1942? Would we have withdrawn to the Hawaiian – Alaska defensive line…Sending Saratoga to the Atlantic to help protect convoys? Would we have ceded the Western Pacific to the Japanese?
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            • #7
              Originally posted by The Doctor
              This is really more of a possible change in circumstance, rather than a conscious decision…

              What if Lexington and Enterprise had returned to Pearl on Saturday 6 December 1941?
              I think it would have done no more than delay the timetable. There was no way that Japan could stop the US.
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              • #8
                Would we have even tried? If they had sunk Enterprise and Lexington, the IJN could have returned to hit Pearl again in early 1942. If they were able to seize Midway, Betties and Nells could have hit any ship moving west out of the Hawaiian Islands. Mavises could have kept an eye on all of our fleet movements.

                If Port Moresby had fallen, there probably would not have been a Bismarck Sea battle. Maybe Pappy Gunn never perfects skip-bombing and para-fragging. Without a protracted air battle over Henderson Field, the IJN doesn't attrit their best pilots in long range strike missions.

                With no Coral Sea and Midway, six IJN fleet carriers are free to maraud the Pacific for all of 1942 and a good part of 1943 before Essex and Independence Class carriers are available in meaningful numbers.

                Could it have broken our will to fight in the Pacific?
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by The Doctor
                  Could it have broken our will to fight in the Pacific?
                  I think we would have. Losing every battle for the first six months didn't hurt our morale...I'm not sure changing that to ten* would have made a difference.

                  * Number picked at random.
                  Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
                  Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


                  "Never pet a burning dog."

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                  • #10
                    wut if the allies didnt nuke the japs

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tanker55
                      wut if the allies didnt nuke the japs
                      Simple. Many Allied soldiers would die in Operation Chariot and Japan would be split like Korea after the war.

                      If Chamberlain would have been able to stay, it wouldnt have made much diffrence. Things would go as they did until he would die during the bombings in 1940.
                      "Beneath its gilded beauty, though, there lies a poorly designed game which rewards the greedy and violent, and punishes the hardworking and honest; and if you think about it, that's a good representation of capitalism" - Nightfreeze about Eve Online

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by tsar
                        Everyone always does what ifs as what could Germany have done to win the war? I would like to take a different track and ask what could the Allies have done that would have lost them the war?
                        Since WWII was won by the Allies in Russia, the key what ifs would have to be Russian.

                        1. Russian civil war won by Whites and the Tsar reinstalled. In all probability the Tsar would not do the 2 things that Stalin did that guarenteed victory for Russia. They were massively modernize and industrialize the Russian economy and train millions of reservists.

                        2. Reds win but Lenin lives and doesn't pursue industrialization as ruthlessly as Stalin.

                        3. Western allies increase support for Whites and prolong Russian civil war resulting in a weaker Russia.

                        With regard to the pacific war, the biggest what if is that the Japanese don't attack Pearl. The US Navy's war plan was to sail from Pearl to the Phillipines. Those 6 Japanese carriers would have engaged an unprepared US navy in the deep ocean off the Phillipines. Net result would be most of the US pacific fleet on the bottom. Much worse than Pearl where most of the ships were raised from the shallow bottom and repaired and returned to service.

                        US production was vastly greater than Japanese. The only thing really major allied blunders do is push back the date of the nuking of the Japanese homeland.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by AdrianE
                          Since WWII was won by the Allies in Russia, the key what ifs would have to be Russian.

                          1. Russian civil war won by Whites and the Tsar reinstalled. In all probability the Tsar would not do the 2 things that Stalin did that guarenteed victory for Russia. They were massively modernize and industrialize the Russian economy and train millions of reservists.

                          2. Reds win but Lenin lives and doesn't pursue industrialization as ruthlessly as Stalin.

                          3. Western allies increase support for Whites and prolong Russian civil war resulting in a weaker Russia.

                          With regard to the pacific war, the biggest what if is that the Japanese don't attack Pearl. The US Navy's war plan was to sail from Pearl to the Phillipines. Those 6 Japanese carriers would have engaged an unprepared US navy in the deep ocean off the Phillipines. Net result would be most of the US pacific fleet on the bottom. Much worse than Pearl where most of the ships were raised from the shallow bottom and repaired and returned to service.

                          US production was vastly greater than Japanese. The only thing really major allied blunders do is push back the date of the nuking of the Japanese homeland.
                          Of course, if the Whites stay in power, then the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk is still in effect, giving the Germans huge tracts of formerly Russian lands. Certainly changes things!
                          Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
                          Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


                          "Never pet a burning dog."

                          RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:
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                          http://www.sca.org
                          http://www.scv.org/
                          http://www.scouting.org/

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                          • #14
                            Actually, Brest-Litovsk was signed beetween the Bolshevik goverment and the German goverment. If the Revolution was reppeled, Russia would have stayed in the war until the end of it. As for the civil war, by then the war was over and the Germans signed the peace treaty in Versailles which, among other things, nuliffied the Brest-Litovsk deal.
                            "Beneath its gilded beauty, though, there lies a poorly designed game which rewards the greedy and violent, and punishes the hardworking and honest; and if you think about it, that's a good representation of capitalism" - Nightfreeze about Eve Online

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                            • #15
                              Allied what ifs

                              There are two very viable what ifs that could have had profound influence in the outcome of World War Two and our current world.

                              1. America could have sat out the war. Selling war materiel to either side with equal gusto. Admittedly not very likely!!!!!

                              2. Hitler's scientists could have done what Einstein and others believed they could do and build an Atomic bomb first.

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