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  • German Rule in Poland

    For All Axis Politicians & Commanders:

    These Boards have focused alot on battles and campaigns, but not so much on the details of Alternate social, economic, and political policies of the German occupation of Europe and their possible alteration of, or changes to, the course of the war. And before you say "that's not possible" -- considier what impact 30 or more Ukrainian divisions or "liberation policies" {what Stalin feared the most} might have had on the eastern front. I'm also not talking policies that were impossible for the German mindset, etc. If interest is high, perhaps additional discussions will be warranted....

    Scenario: German Rule in Poland

    It is October, 1939. Poland has Fallen and the Fuehrer must decide how to handle the occupation of the country. There are many factions pushing their own agendas. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs Office and many General Staff favor moderate policies of occupation. "During the short period in which the different alternatives were being considered and the idea of ....a Polish state was being maneuvered... the question of political representation emerged". "... from the Polish point of view it might have looked different [than historical outcome] had there been any possibility of German brutality being reduced and the substance of the nation rescued." [Poland in the Second World War by Jozef Garlinski, P.32]

    There was actually some possibility of a collaborationist government possible under the promenence of "...Valdyslaw Studnicki...a politician from the period of the First World War, an advocate of co-operation with the Germans during the twenty years of Polish independence, who sought contact with the occupying powers as long ago as the time of the September Campaign." [Poland in Second World War, ditto]

    Himmler and the SS are pushing for immediate expulsion of all poles from the Western provinces to be annexed into the greater German Reich, for settlement by the Volksdeutsch from the Baltics and Russia. [Hitler Strikes Poland by Alexander Rossino]

    Many states in Europe eventually contributed significant manpower to the Germany military machine, especially through the Waffen SS. Polish forces are formidable, and Germany ending up attacking with only a 1.5 to 1 overall force ratio with a 2.3 to 1 along the main axis of attacks.

    "As of 1 September, the Polish army had deployed 23 regular infantry divisions, three reserve infantry divisions, eight calvary brigades, three mountain brigades, a one motorized brigade as well as some border troops and other paramilitary formations." [Poland 1939:The Birth of the Blitzkreig by Steven J. Zaloga, P.23]

    Adolf Hitler has a problem however. Unbeknownst to even his highest generals, the secret protocols of the non-agression pact with Russia include a provision to essentially eliminate a Polish state, although there is some minor wiggle room.

    Historically, he choose to set up military backed Civilian Adminstrations under Gauleiter's responsible directly to him, as opposed further empowering Himmler. However there was no real coodination of their approaches to "Germanize" (or not) the areas under their control and each worked against the other more in practice than not.

    What could Hitler have done to make a difference? Would the impact be major, minor or intermediate to the overall war effort? {Remember enough advantages, even minor ones add up} Many histories -- mostly written by the victorious allies -- say accomodation was not possible. But new studies and works are showing that the historical outcome of German policies in Poland was not pre-determined. After all, Germany had already reached an understanding with Slovakia, as Slav as they come. Slovakia actively supported the german war effort until after Stalingrad and the cards turned.

    This discussion can examine both initial, and longer term, changes to have have some fun with where they might have lead.

    VM
    21
    Creating a full Puppet State in 1939, even if this angered Stalin
    42.86%
    9
    Offering limited citizenship to higher elements of Polish Society willing to work with Germany
    4.76%
    1
    Direct all Gauleiters to cooperate and pursue policies designed to minimize armed dissent
    4.76%
    1
    Secretly negotiate with prominent pro-Axis Poles for a new Polish Satellite State, but setup after Russia is attacked
    14.29%
    3
    Delay a decision on the Jewish Question and also not evict Poles in the dead of winter
    9.52%
    2
    Preventing the escape of over 100,000 regular Polish soldiers into Romania at campaign's end
    23.81%
    5

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by E_Von_Manstein; 15 Jan 06, 19:42.

  • #2
    By setting up a puppet state that would have given the Danzig back to Germany then renounced the treaty with the west a lot of the motivation to continue the war would have been gone after Dunkirk. After all why continue the fight when even the Poles have sided with Hitler. By eliminating the Western front more German troops could have been sent to Russia. This could have been further augmented if the policy toward the west was something along the lines of we leave your government to run things all you have to do is provide us with fuel, trucks and planes.
    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

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    • #3
      "We do not know in Poland peace for any price. One is in life of people thing only, nations and states, which is invaluable. Honor is this thing."

      Josef Beck polish FM
      so unwise and so polish
      for the Hitler plans to Poland Check General Plan Ost and Mein Kampf

      Together with settlers from other Gernanic countries and Volksdeutsche, the authors of the GPO expected to have 10 million persons for the colonization of the eastern territories. These territories included the occupied Polish lands, the Soviet Baltic republics (Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia), the "West Ukraine" (the provinces of Zhitomir and Kamieniec Podolski, part of Vinnitsa) and areas assigned for settlement: the Leningrad region (Ingermanland), the Crimea and hinterland and the bend of the Dnieper (Dnieprbogen). These territories were populated by about 45 million "aliens" including 5-6 million Jews5. For racial reasons, the authors of the GPO planned to deport 31 million of these people to western Siberia. On the other hand, one may accept the hypothesis that the remaining 14 million people were to be annihilated, or considered suitable for Germanization and left where they were, or else used as manpower to work in the Reich or in the annexed territories.

      Wetzel also writes that the GPO gave the percentage of Polish and Byelorussian population and that of the "West Ukraine" and the Baltic countries that was to be deported to West Siberia in the course of thirty years. Wetzel, who opposed the resettlement of the population from the Baltic republics, made an exception here and did not quote the percentage. Of the Polish population 80-85% was to be deported, i.e., from 16 to 20l4 million;65% of the population was to be deported from the "West Ukraine" and 75% from Byelorussia.
      here is source: http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffma...gpoarticle.HTM
      E. 16 July 1941, Hitler Comments, Conference in Führer Headquarters, in Czesław Madajczyk, ed., Generalny Plan Wschodni: Zbiór dokumentów (Warszawa: Glówna Komisja Badania Zbrodni Hitlerowskich w Polsce, 1990), pp. 61-64.

      On Hitler’s aims in the conquered east: “The Crimea must be cleared of all [racially] foreign peoples, as must the parts of Galicia which formerly belonged to the Austrian Empire. …We must make a Garden of Eden out of the newly won eastern territories; this is important for our future existence; [overseas] colonies play a subordinate role. … All of the Baltic lands must be annexed to the Reich. Similarly, the Crimea, with a significant adjoining region (the region north of the Crimea) must become Reich territory. The annexed territory must be as large as possible. … The Reich must also annex the Volga Colony and the area around Baku.”
      So It can be assumed that after victorius end of WW2 the germans would deport even slavak and croat fascists AH hated all slavic poeple as intence as Jews
      http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffma...Adolf%20Hitler
      Kosovo is Serbian.
      I support United Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
      Behead those who say Islam is violent!

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      • #4
        thing is that Hitler had deep in his ideology the simple elimination of eastern states to be germanized and colonized. there was no question in his mind that Poland would simple be erased and be part of Germany. Not only the parts lots after ww1, but the whole of it.
        so what else could he do based on that thoughz. I voted - try to prevent the polish soldiers to escape....
        if he was more ruthless, he could have put more of pokand to slave work/kill to prevent any uprisings, but then Polish people were not to be eliminated completely but to be slaves of the aryans.
        (which would be sad, as polish are great people)
        "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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        • #5
          I think there was some possibility of Polish support for the German effort, had the Germans simply not treated the Poles like crap. When Heydrich took over in Bohemia-Moravia, he gave the workers shoes and better food and production in defense-related plants soared. That's why the Brits had him whacked...not because of any great love the allies had for the Czech resistance. A similar plan may have worked in Poland. I doubt the Poles would have ever loved the Germans, but they may have tolerated them and worked for them. Who knows what difference a dozen or so German divisions from Poland could have made?
          Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
          Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


          "Never pet a burning dog."

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Janos
            I think there was some possibility of Polish support for the German effort, had the Germans simply not treated the Poles like crap. When Heydrich took over in Bohemia-Moravia, he gave the workers shoes and better food and production in defense-related plants soared. That's why the Brits had him whacked...not because of any great love the allies had for the Czech resistance. A similar plan may have worked in Poland. I doubt the Poles would have ever loved the Germans, but they may have tolerated them and worked for them. Who knows what difference a dozen or so German divisions from Poland could have made?
            If the Polish government came up with a practical plan for an anti-Soviet alliance with Hitler the Polish population would have almost certainly accepted it. The fear of Germany paled in comparison to what most Poles thought about Russia, a state of affairs that persists to the present day. Most Poles would have voted in favor of joining an anti-Bolshevik German crusade and marching on the Soviet Russia to destroy that state and deal with the Russian hostility and threats once and for all (in this respect Poland was no different from Finland, Romania, Hungary and other anti-Soviet Axis members). Both Hitler and Ribbenthrop made direct offers of Axis membership to the Polish PM Joseph Beck although it is doubtful their intentions were honest. All Hitler wanted to do was probably stalling an alternative alliance of Poland with the Anglo-Francs. Hitler knew he had no choice but to throw Poland to the Soviet beast. Hitler could pact with either Poland or the USSR but never both at once because in Stalin's view (a correct view) a Polish alliance with Hitler was an Axis declaration of war on the USSR. Compared to Poland the Russians simply had too much to offer: strategic resources such as oil and other raw materials which they later delivered to Germany after the fall of Poland. Hitler needed the Russian oil for the invasion of Russia! Compared to the Soviet raw material wealth the Poles had very little to offer Hitler; perhaps a handful of poorly-armed infantry divisions that would have made little or no contribution to the outcome of Barbarossa.
            Last edited by MonsterZero; 17 Jan 06, 10:48.

            "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
            --Frederick II, King of Prussia

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            • #7
              certainly, had the nazis been rational in anything, they might have won the war. indeed Poland, Yugoslavia, Greece, and even Britain... most countries would have played the anti-comunist stance had Germany showed clear and rational aims and plans to be, with Britan a paternalistic an benevolent power. now a benevolent nazi regime is something hard to imagine.
              "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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              • #8
                Originally posted by piero1971
                certainly, had the nazis been rational in anything, they might have won the war. indeed Poland, Yugoslavia, Greece, and even Britain... most countries would have played the anti-comunist stance had Germany showed clear and rational aims and plans to be, with Britan a paternalistic an benevolent power. now a benevolent nazi regime is something hard to imagine.
                Hi there,

                You are generally right, but they did have the ability to do so, and generally did in the West, where they were able to draw support from French and BENELUX fascist parties, as well as in Norway. There were probably others as well.
                Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
                Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


                "Never pet a burning dog."

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by MonsterZero
                  If the Polish government came up with a practical plan for an anti-Soviet alliance with Hitler the Polish population would have almost certainly accepted it. <lots of good stuff snipped>
                  I doubt it. Unfortunately Poland is essentially an Autobahn to the Soviet Union and would have had to go in any case. I suspect it could have been done better though.
                  Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
                  Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


                  "Never pet a burning dog."

                  RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:
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                  http://www.scv.org/
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Janos
                    Poland is essentially an Autobahn to the Soviet Union.
                    the best description of 1939 Poland I ever read!! lol.
                    "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by piero1971
                      the best description of 1939 Poland I ever read!! lol.
                      Glad you liked it!

                      Of course, as the Germans learned in 1944-5, it was a two-way road.
                      Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
                      Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


                      "Never pet a burning dog."

                      RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:
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                      http://www.sca.org
                      http://www.scv.org/
                      http://www.scouting.org/

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                      • #12
                        lol. indeed.
                        "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Janos
                          Who knows what difference a dozen or so German divisions from Poland could have made?
                          Thus leaving me with the mental picture of Polish cav vs. Cossacks.
                          Delegate, MN GOP.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SGT Long
                            Thus leaving me with the mental picture of Polish cav vs. Cossacks.
                            well there were some of those in 1920!
                            "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tsar
                              By setting up a puppet state that would have given the Danzig back to Germany then renounced the treaty with the west a lot of the motivation to continue the war would have been gone after Dunkirk. After all why continue the fight when even the Poles have sided with Hitler. By eliminating the Western front more German troops could have been sent to Russia. This could have been further augmented if the policy toward the west was something along the lines of we leave your government to run things all you have to do is provide us with fuel, trucks and planes.

                              I'm not sure a Polish puppet state would have influenced Great Britain to come to the treaty table with Winston as Prime Minister. But by not setting up some structure to deflect the "legitimacy" of any such government-in-exile attempted in the West, the 100,000+ poles who crossed the border into Romania at the end of the 1939 campaign became the cadre of a new polish army in the west that made contributions during France 1940, but more so PILOTS during the Battle of Britain (biggest impact in my opinion given how dire the pilot situation was), and in the allied attack on Narvik in April!

                              Certainly maintaining an army structure under a puppet government of some type in the Homeland, no matter how lightly equipped, would have serious impacts on any attempt at reconsitution in the west.

                              These troops could have also been used for security duties in the east after the attck on Russia, as opposed to fighting in the front lines.

                              VM

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