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WWII Possibilities

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  • WWII Possibilities

    Here's a few What-Ifs for you that I've pondered over the years.

    What-If...

    a) Hitler had not formulated a "Final Solution" but rather expelled versus exterminated the Jews? Would there have been as much outrage amongst the Allies against Germany for the purported autrocities? Was this even a factor for US involvement in the war and to what level did in accentuate that involvement?

    b) Hitler had left Command/Control of the German military over to the General Staff and concentrated on winning/maintaining the political war?

    c) Germany had invaded Russia immediately following Poland and kept a defensive posture in the West until Russia capitulated?

    If one or all of these had come to pass would we see an entirely different political landscape in Europe today?
    It's not the critic who counts, the credit belongs to the man in the arena, whose face is marred by dust, sweat & blood, who at worst fails while daring, so that his place shall never be with cold, timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.

  • #2
    It wouldn't have been possible to invade Russia any earlier than 1940...
    Wisdom is personal

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Alone GreyWolf
      Here's a few What-Ifs for you that I've pondered over the years.

      What-If...

      a) Hitler had not formulated a "Final Solution" but rather expelled versus exterminated the Jews? Would there have been as much outrage amongst the Allies against Germany for the purported autrocities? Was this even a factor for US involvement in the war and to what level did in accentuate that involvement?

      b) Hitler had left Command/Control of the German military over to the General Staff and concentrated on winning/maintaining the political war?

      c) Germany had invaded Russia immediately following Poland and kept a defensive posture in the West until Russia capitulated?

      If one or all of these had come to pass would we see an entirely different political landscape in Europe today?
      a) No changes. The US joined the war in Europe beacuse Germany and Italy declared war on them. Jews played no factor in this. Also, the Allies would still be outraged, not to mention they would probably receive large numbers of refugees.

      b) Now that would have possibly won the war for Germany While Hitler was preety far-seeing, I agree that he should have left the command of the campaigns to the Supreme Command.

      c) It would end as failure. One of the reasons why Barbarossa was such a success in the beggining was that the German Military had experience with modern warfare. Remember that their attack on the USSR was a repeat of the previous Blitzkrieg campaigns. It would have worked if the German military had more time (Hitler wasted his time in the Balkans) and if they concentrated on important objectives.
      "Beneath its gilded beauty, though, there lies a poorly designed game which rewards the greedy and violent, and punishes the hardworking and honest; and if you think about it, that's a good representation of capitalism" - Nightfreeze about Eve Online

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      • #4
        The invasion of Russia right after the invasion of Poland wouldn't be possible because of the weather. Invasion of Poland was in september. Invasion of Russia wouldn't last before winter and this would be a disaster. Also French and British would attack Germany from west and that would be the end of Third Reich.
        This is what I think.

        Regards
        Fatih
        "A nation which makes the final sacrifice for life and freedom does not get beaten." - Mustafa Kemal ATATURK

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        • #5
          Originally posted by fatih
          The invasion of Russia right after the invasion of Poland wouldn't be possible because of the weather. Invasion of Poland was in september. Invasion of Russia wouldn't last before winter and this would be a disaster. Also French and British would attack Germany from west and that would be the end of Third Reich.
          This is what I think.

          Regards
          Fatih
          While I agree on Barbarossa, I do not think the French would attack Germany even if the British supported them to do so. Allthough facing the inferior Siegfried line, the French still clearly imagined the horrors of WW1 and the attacking of fortified positions. Also, they obeyed Maginots doctrine which supported total defence. So I think the western front would remain quiet and the "sitzkrieg" would countinue.
          "Beneath its gilded beauty, though, there lies a poorly designed game which rewards the greedy and violent, and punishes the hardworking and honest; and if you think about it, that's a good representation of capitalism" - Nightfreeze about Eve Online

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          • #6
            AFAIK, the French were planning a major offensive no earlier than 1942...On the other hand, if the Germans would prepare to attack Russia in 1940, they would also probaply give significant help to finns, which might have been able to humiliate russia even more...with significant portion of Red Army tied in the finnish border, who knows what might happen.
            Wisdom is personal

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Alone GreyWolf
              a) Hitler had not formulated a "Final Solution" but rather expelled versus exterminated the Jews? Would there have been as much outrage amongst the Allies against Germany for the purported autrocities? Was this even a factor for US involvement in the war and to what level did in accentuate that involvement?
              The actual outrage came after the war when the concentration camps were discovered. The US was actually turning away Jewish refugees wanting to come to the US in the years before the war.

              Originally posted by Alone GreyWolf
              b) Hitler had left Command/Control of the German military over to the General Staff and concentrated on winning/maintaining the political war?
              Germany was destined to lose the war no matter who was in charge. There was no way they could compete with the industrial might of the Allies. Hitler's non-involement would have resulted in a longer war but would end in a loss none the less.

              Originally posted by Alone GreyWolf
              c) Germany had invaded Russia immediately following Poland and kept a defensive posture in the West until Russia capitulated?
              Barbarossa was the undoing of the 3rd Reich (besides delaring war on the US). Without the resources that France, Norway, and the Low countries provided they would not have had the ability to invade. The majority of German armor was obsolete by time of the Polish campaign so Russian T-34's and KV-1's would've been an even greater surprise.
              If you can't set a good example, be a glaring warning.

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              • #8
                Well, thanks for the replies and thoughts on these issues. I tend to think Germany could have won a strategic victory had some of what we discussed came to pass (i.e Hitler left the war-planning up to the Generals, Germany had not attcked Russia or declaredwar on the US, etc.). There were clearly many points in history when Hitler/German High Command could have made better decisions.

                The reason I brought up the Jewish issue is the fact of how harshly history has judged the German people. I took a graduate class on the Waffen SS at AMU and we had a unique opportunity to chat online w/ one of the former members of this elite fighting force and while no one in the class made his personal politics an issue, you could tell he's had to defend himself over the decades for what he claims (and I believe) were actions by his country he had no knowledge of. Now I don't mean to excuse the conduct of the extreme elements of the Reich, but the ordinary soldier, IMHO, should not have been so harshly judged for simply serving his nation. Even if that nation participated in some pretty despicable acts.
                Just curious if something like expulsion vs. extermination would have changed the perception we have of Germany's role in WWII.

                Was conquering Poland and France and then stopping short and suing for a quick peace with the remaining Allies even an option?
                It's not the critic who counts, the credit belongs to the man in the arena, whose face is marred by dust, sweat & blood, who at worst fails while daring, so that his place shall never be with cold, timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Alone GreyWolf
                  Was conquering Poland and France and then stopping short and suing for a quick peace with the remaining Allies even an option?
                  It would have been if the BEF would have been demolished in France. But it survived, thus giving the British will to countinue the fight.
                  "Beneath its gilded beauty, though, there lies a poorly designed game which rewards the greedy and violent, and punishes the hardworking and honest; and if you think about it, that's a good representation of capitalism" - Nightfreeze about Eve Online

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The only way Germany could win WWII was not to start it. WWII was unwinnable by the Axis. All you have to do is look at the economies, resources and industrial capacity of the countries opposed to the Axis to reach that conclusion.

                    GreyWolf - History has harshly judged the Germans because what they did do was horrendous.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by AdrianE
                      The only way Germany could win WWII was not to start it. WWII was unwinnable by the Axis. All you have to do is look at the economies, resources and industrial capacity of the countries opposed to the Axis to reach that conclusion.

                      GreyWolf - History has harshly judged the Germans because what they did do was horrendous.
                      I cant agree with that. With more cooperation beetween the powers (most notably Germany and Japan) and a bit more careful tactics, they could have won the war. Germany almost won on its own, but it was Hitlers mistakes which costed them victory. Allthough Hitler was preety far-seeing, he stopped listening to his generals from Barbarossa onward when planning how to take actual steps.

                      The victory for the Axis wasnt impossible. They were just too short-minded to gain it, even though they had the means.
                      "Beneath its gilded beauty, though, there lies a poorly designed game which rewards the greedy and violent, and punishes the hardworking and honest; and if you think about it, that's a good representation of capitalism" - Nightfreeze about Eve Online

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Tom Phoenix
                        I cant agree with that. With more cooperation beetween the powers (most notably Germany and Japan) and a bit more careful tactics, they could have won the war. Germany almost won on its own, but it was Hitlers mistakes which costed them victory. Allthough Hitler was preety far-seeing, he stopped listening to his generals from Barbarossa onward when planning how to take actual steps.

                        The victory for the Axis wasnt impossible. They were just too short-minded to gain it, even though they had the means.

                        In fact, up to June 1942 (Midway) most seasoned insiders were saying the ALLIES couldn't win.

                        Agree completely, Hitler lost the war with HIS conduct of Barbarossa {Kiev instead of Moscow in 1941} {Splitting army group A in 1942 instead of concentrating on Stalingrad first -Luffwaffe couldn't be everywhere -- and it was a critical component of breakthrough tactics} and finally, and perhaps biggest? Germany, Italy and Japan all fighting parallel but SEPARATE wars, whereas the allies , dispite divisions, agreed on major policy (Germany first).

                        The German General Staff, if left to its own devices, could have won the war in the east. But the strengths of Dictatorships (absolute direction, relatively quick decision/response) also have weaknesses (trust, ulterior motives, need to never be wrong) that go hand in hand -- pretty rare to have one without the other. If Hitler could have picked the point to "get out of the way" he could have "taken his game to the next level". Meddling in Poland and France was one thing .. Russia was WAY TOO BIG a canvas to "wing it" like he ended up doing.

                        VM

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                        • #13
                          The fall of Russia scenario never fails to fascinate me because it would quickly knock both England and the United States out of the war in Europe.

                          In the European and African theaters Russia was the last hope of both the United States and England. If Russia was knocked out, the United States would be knocked out as well and unable to assist England. This is because with the Soviet Russia finished, Japan's influence in Asia and the far east would skyrocket. The Americans would be so busy with Japan in the far east that they could pay little or no attention to England's woes, ultimately leading to the surrender of England and preventing any Allied landings in Europe.

                          I know that the Americans did do some planning for the possible fall of England. The Boeing B-50 bomber (an improved B-29) was designed to attack Germany from Greenland if England surrendered. Convair's B-36 Peacemaker was also designed with a great haste with the assumption the England would be invaded and finished. The B-36 was for transatlantic attacks taking off in the USA, dropping 5 tons on Germany and landing back in the States.

                          Ultimately the Americans would probably use nuclear weapons against German cities forcing Hitler into some kind of an accomodation with the United States.
                          Last edited by MonsterZero; 05 Jan 06, 07:58.

                          "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
                          --Frederick II, King of Prussia

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                          • #14
                            Hmm

                            B might have won the war for Germany. Overall I think it was Hitlers fault he lost the war. He based everything off race and made it a racial war and a war of what he thought which wasn't good for winning a war. He did waste to much time on Stalingrad and the Balkans. He kept the london blitz going longer when he should have waited so the counterfeit money could be finsihed to dump on london. He should have not killed anyone and if to do something mean send them to the front lines and make them all work. He should have just let the Japanese fight USA and wait for USA to go to war with him. Before invading Russia he should have finished up the middle east and north africa. He let it keep going giving Britain a chance. He wasted time in Balkans in Barbarossa and should have taken moscow and leningrad. He should have kept his Generals liking him more so there would be no assination and he would still have Rommel to defend. Overall I think he should have just done what ive said. Proably some more there. Sorry if my info is wrong its all gathered from multiple books and shows ive watched some on the history channel which people say is a doubtable source and im 13 and most 13 year olds know nothing about this.

                            That is general problems I see with his war plan.

                            What I might do.

                            Also If I was Hitler I would have maybe even waited on Russia and slow down the London bombings and prepare for a massive round 2 of the London blitz wihcih will includ dropping counterfeit money on them. Also pushing on with Africa. I would make a reserve force ready to attack Russia. Also increase submarines. If Russia starts to look a threat I would lauch a immediate attack with the reserve force. (Hopfully I could wait on attacking Russia.)

                            Or this

                            Continue finishing off Africa and England. As that is happening Possiably ally Russia and try and convince them to attack Japan. (After Pearl Harbor) I would not declare war on Japan until they declare war on me. Japan will start to crumble. Once Russia's full scale attack on Japan is in progress I would attack Russia. I think theyd fall fast. Japan vs US, I think it will go faster with US winning because of Russias attacks and possiable Japanese counterattacks. If it all goes to plan I would have Europe, Africa, Middle East, Russia and maybe England. I would pause and build up my economy and get the new lands in order for a while.

                            Hmm, Im going of topic but had lots of fun typing it out.
                            yeah!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MonsterZero
                              I know that the Americans did do some planning for the possible fall of England. The Boeing B-50 bomber (an improved B-29) was designed to attack Germany from Greenland if England surrendered. Convair's B-36 Peacemaker was also designed with a great haste with the assumption the England would be invaded and finished. The B-36 was for transatlantic attacks taking off in the USA, dropping 5 tons on Germany and landing back in the States.
                              What about B-32 Dominator? Did they came close to see action in World War II before WWII ended?

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