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What Saddam could have done differently in 1990

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  • What Saddam could have done differently in 1990

    Not at the bigger political level but at the tactical level what could the iraqis could have done to avoid the complete rout in 1990 ?

    What are their big military blunders ? and how could they have avoided it ?

    If you were an iraqi general what would you advise saddam during the time of desert shield ? to maximize the defensive positions in Kuwait and along the border with KSA
    What naval strategy would you advise ?

  • #2
    They could have thoroughly looted Kuwait and then pulled back into Iraq, instead of threatening Saudi Arabia.

    Pruitt
    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
      They could have thoroughly looted Kuwait and then pulled back into Iraq, instead of threatening Saudi Arabia.

      Pruitt
      That, or they could have done the opposite and invaded Saudi Arabia before the Coalition had its forces built up.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by johns624 View Post
        That, or they could have done the opposite and invaded Saudi Arabia before the Coalition had its forces built up.
        Indeed.
        It took him about 2 hours to seize Kuwait, they could have gone all the way to the Oil Fields in a couple of days, and been in Rhyad in a week.
        Once the ports of entry are in Iraqi hands, places any kind of forces there is far more complicated.

        Our only Paratroop Division isn't much of a speed-bump for half a dozen Armored Divisions.
        "Why is the Rum gone?"

        -Captain Jack

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        • #5
          I was in the area at the time and had been scheduled to drive up from Al Khobar to Kuwait City on the day of the invasion. I saw the total panic and confusion in the area. Forget Riyadh what he could have done is take Dohar (the Saudi Dohar) roll down into E Province Saudi and take the oil fields, the Bahrain causeway and down into Qatar and the Emirates.. Then to get at him would require an opposed amphibious operation by the coalition. Even if they'd used the airfield at Riyadh there is only a single road and a railway line across hundreds of miles of desert to E province. No one could understand why he didn't do this.
          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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          • #6
            Originally posted by nastle View Post
            what could the iraqis could have done to avoid the complete rout in 1990 ?
            Please remind me why Iraq invaded Kuwait in the first place? I was under the impression they did it due primarily to a dispute over an oil field that spanned the border and thought that Kuwait was attempting to drain all the oil from both sides of the border.

            I'll offer a corollary: what if Iraq had not invaded at all?
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            • #7
              Originally posted by Herman Hum View Post
              Please remind me why Iraq invaded Kuwait in the first place? I was under the impression they did it due primarily to a dispute over an oil field that spanned the border and thought that Kuwait was attempting to drain all the oil from both sides of the border.

              I'll offer a corollary: what if Iraq had not invaded at all?
              Saddam borrowed a lot of money from the oil states to run his war machine against Iran. Then he needed to replace some of the equipment that was wore out. Then Kuwait started asking when he was going to pay them back for some of these "loans"? Bad timing!

              I don't know if the Iraqi Republican Guard could have gone much further. Iraq had to hire people to maintain a lot of the sophisticated equipment.

              Pruitt
              Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

              Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

              by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Herman Hum View Post
                Please remind me why Iraq invaded Kuwait in the first place? I was under the impression they did it due primarily to a dispute over an oil field that spanned the border and thought that Kuwait was attempting to drain all the oil from both sides of the border.

                I'll offer a corollary: what if Iraq had not invaded at all?
                He was green lighted by Galspie.

                July 25, 1990 – Presidential Palace – Baghdad
                U.S. Ambassador Glaspie – I have direct instructions from President Bush to improve our relations with Iraq. We have considerable sympathy for your quest for higher oil prices, the immediate cause of your confrontation with Kuwait. (pause) As you know, I lived here for years and admire your extraordinary efforts to rebuild your country. We know you need funds. We understand that, and our opinion is that you should have the opportunity to rebuild your country. (pause) We can see that you have deployed massive numbers of troops in the south. Normally that would be none of our business, but when this happens in the context of your threat s against Kuwait, then it would be reasonable for us to be concerned. For this reason, I have received an instruction to ask you, in the spirit of friendship – not confrontation – regarding your intentions: Why are your troops massed so very close to Kuwait’s borders?
                Saddam Hussein – As you know, for years now I have made every effort to reach a settlement on our dispute with Kuwait. There is to be a meeting in two days; I am prepared to give negotiations only this one more brief chance. (pause) When we (the Iraqis) meet (with the Kuwaitis) and we see there is hope, then nothing will happen. But if we are unable to find a solution, then it will be natural that Iraq will not accept death.



                U.S. Ambassador Glaspie – What solutions would be acceptable?
                Saddam Hussein – If we could keep the whole of the Shatt al Arab – our strategic goal in our war with Iran – we will make concessions (to the Kuwaitis). But, if we are forced to choose between keeping half of the Shatt and the whole of Iraq (i.e., in Saddam s view, including Kuwait ) then we will give up all of the Shatt to defend our claims on Kuwait to keep the whole of Iraq in the shape we wish it to be. (pause) What is the United States’ opinion on this?
                U.S. Ambassador Glaspie – We have no opinion on your Arab – Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960’s, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America. (Saddam smiles)
                On August 2, 1990, Saddam massed troops to invade and occupy Kuwait. _____
                Baghdad, September 2, 1990, U.S. Embassy
                One month later, British journalists obtain the the above tape and transcript of the Saddam – Glaspie meeting of July 29, 1990. Astounded, they confront Ms. Glaspie as she leaves the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad.
                Journalist 1 – Are the transcripts (holding them up) correct, Madam Ambassador?(Ambassador Glaspie does not respond)
                Journalist 2 – You knew Saddam was going to invade (Kuwait ) but you didn’t warn him not to. You didn’t tell him America would defend Kuwait. You told him the opposite – that America was not associated with Kuwait.
                Journalist 1 – You encouraged this aggression – his invasion. What were you thinking?
                U.S. Ambassador Glaspie – Obviously, I didn’t think, and nobody else did, that the Iraqis were going to take all of Kuwait.
                Journalist 1 – You thought he was just going to take some of it? But, how could you? Saddam told you that, if negotiations failed , he would give up his Iran (Shatt al Arab waterway) goal for the Whole of Iraq, in the shape we wish it to be. You know that includes Kuwait, which the Iraqis have always viewed as an historic part of their country!
                Journalist 1 – American green-lighted the invasion. At a minimum, you admit signaling Saddam that some aggression was okay – that the U.S. would not oppose a grab of the al-Rumeilah oil field, the disputed border strip and the Gulf Islands (including Bubiyan) – the territories claimed by Iraq?
                (Ambassador Glaspie says nothing as a limousine door closed behind her and the car drives off.)


                https://www.globalresearch.ca/gulf-w...-glaspie/31145
                Credo quia absurdum.


                Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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                • #9
                  More than he could chew and he could never defend it.

                  Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                  I was in the area at the time and had been scheduled to drive up from Al Khobar to Kuwait City on the day of the invasion. I saw the total panic and confusion in the area. Forget Riyadh what he could have done is take Dohar (the Saudi Dohar) roll down into E Province Saudi and take the oil fields, the Bahrain causeway and down into Qatar and the Emirates.. Then to get at him would require an opposed amphibious operation by the coalition. Even if they'd used the airfield at Riyadh there is only a single road and a railway line across hundreds of miles of desert to E province. No one could understand why he didn't do this.
                  My worst jump story:
                  My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                  As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                  No lie.

                  ~
                  "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                  -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    If Saddam took Saudi Arabia too the US and others might have nuked him with that much control of the worlds oil supply since to take it back would've taken too long.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      His only option was not to do it at all.

                      Or wait until Slick Willie or Bobo was POTUS.
                      Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                        I was in the area at the time and had been scheduled to drive up from Al Khobar to Kuwait City on the day of the invasion. I saw the total panic and confusion in the area. Forget Riyadh what he could have done is take Dohar (the Saudi Dohar) roll down into E Province Saudi and take the oil fields, the Bahrain causeway and down into Qatar and the Emirates.. Then to get at him would require an opposed amphibious operation by the coalition. Even if they'd used the airfield at Riyadh there is only a single road and a railway line across hundreds of miles of desert to E province. No one could understand why he didn't do this.
                        was this logistically possible ?

                        Would the iraqi army be able to sustain such a foray deep in the desert w/o streching their supply lines the max ?

                        Plus the saudis even in1990 had 47 f-15 and 20 tornadoes they could have been a potent threat to iraqi AF and could have deterred them from supporting any ground operations leaving UAE and Qatari aircraft free to conduct A2G operations

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by nastle View Post
                          was this logistically possible ?

                          Would the iraqi army be able to sustain such a foray deep in the desert w/o streching their supply lines the max ?

                          Plus the saudis even in1990 had 47 f-15 and 20 tornadoes they could have been a potent threat to iraqi AF and could have deterred them from supporting any ground operations leaving UAE and Qatari aircraft free to conduct A2G operations
                          It was logistically possible, but it would also leave his best units completely exposed to carrier-based aviation, and in a position to be cut off by a amphib operation at any one of several points.

                          Keep in mind that the Marines offshore had a significant impact on Iraqi dispositions in Desert Shield.

                          Remember the Highway Of Death leading out of Kuwait? Triple it is the Iraqis had been dumb enough to try this move.

                          Without control of the air Iraqi strategic actions were ultimately pointless. Without the ability to meet and defeat the M-1 Abrams Iraqi tactical and theater operations were pointless.
                          Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The upper Gulf is not a good place to operate large carriers. I once found myself working alongside a retired USN Captain who had once commanded one. It was the first time he'd been back in the UAE since taking his command on a good will visit there. He remarked that there are just too many navigational restrictions on such large vessels and it wouldn't have been his choice for an area for a carrier based action. The big oil tankers follow some very predictable routes for much the same reason

                            The reason that the Iraqi casualties were so high on the Basra road was because there was no air cover most of the Iraqi airforce having been evacuated to Iran (where it was interned) in the face of overwhelming coalition land based aircraft based in Bahrain, Qatar, E P SA and the UAE. If the Iraqi initial advance had denied these fields to the coalition so that it had to rely on smaller numbers of carrier based aircraft the Iraqis might well have not evacuated their aircraft but instead used those same airfields to cover the upper Gulf against the intrusion of any such carrier force.

                            As it was Dohar (Qatar) which had one of the longest runways in the world was very important in the coalition's logistics as was the secret base in South Bahrain and if these had been in Iraq hands within days of the invasion it's difficult to seen how it could have built up forces during Desert Shield in preparation for Desert Storm.
                            Last edited by MarkV; 04 May 18, 05:57.
                            Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                            Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Pretty much, two gutless wonders, both Democrats and worthless.

                              Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                              His only option was not to do it at all.

                              Or wait until Slick Willie or Bobo was POTUS.
                              My worst jump story:
                              My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                              As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                              No lie.

                              ~
                              "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                              -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                              Comment

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