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  • Operation Seelowe.....not TTTSNBN....

    Ok, by requests elsewhere for 'controversial' threads, and not wanting to necro something over 5 years old, I'll throw this out there. Note, this isn't for a bunch of rehashing, nor is it a thread for people to just post links.

    The premise of this thread is thus:

    1) It is just after the fall of France.

    2) Hitler managed to avoid panicking for 24 more hours, which meant that the Panzer Divisions managed to scoop up over half of the British in/around Dunkirk before the last stand defense put up enough resistance to stop them and allow only 100k troops to be evacuated. Thus, Britain has only the veterans of a Corps, not a whole army's worth of experienced cadre on hand.

    The Purpose of this thread:

    We are Wermacht and Luftwaffe command. We know that the Kriegsmarine isn't really capable of doing more than opening a corridor for up to a day, and that'll cost a LOT of their strength on a good day.

    Our objective is to devise a plan to get to the beach, and then bite and hold long enough to withstand the first counterattacks. If we can soundly beat the first counterattacks and actually take a substantial beachhead, there's hope that we can achieve a negotiated resolution to the war with Britain.
    Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

  • #2
    Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
    2) Hitler managed to avoid panicking for 24 more hours, which meant that the Panzer Divisions managed to scoop up over half of the British in/around Dunkirk before the last stand defense put up enough resistance to stop them and allow only 100k troops to be evacuated. Thus, Britain has only the veterans of a Corps, not a whole army's worth of experienced cadre on hand.
    OK. But if so. The Panzer Divisions have taken extensive lost from British and French resistance on the beach, supported by gun fire from British destroyers...(!!You think the RN is really going to run away when their countrymen are being hit on the beaches, even if the Luftwaffe is trying to provide cover to the panzers!!!!)

    Comment


    • #3
      It's the trade off. I agree with your assessment. I'd say that we can probably consider the equivalent of an additional panzer regiment out of action.
      Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

      Comment


      • #4
        Do we have to use the same beaches in the original plan? The British were already building minefields and defenses.

        Pruitt
        Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

        Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

        by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

        Comment


        • #5
          There is one possibility that might work...

          The Germans want to immediately build on their success. They pull what's left of 1st FJ (their available parachute division which is now at about 75% strength), and get it ready to immediately drop in Southern England.
          At the same time, 22nd LuftLande is ordered to assemble, along with the necessary Ju 52 in France on captured airfields.

          Among the infantry divisions on the Belgian and French coast 6 to 9 are instructed to round up ALL available small craft, trawlers, and whatever else they can find and on a date approximately 12 to 15 days later send a minimum of one reinforced battalion by sea to land on the English coast, or at a small port. A list is specified for this purpose.

          The paratroops drop on the same day with the intent to take one or more airfields and reinforce with the 22nd Luftlande division. The seaborne battalions will link up with these troops to form an initial bridgehead.

          With the confusion in France on the Allied side as the country collapses into defeat, and the BEF trying desperately to extricate itself from Dunkirk, the landings would simply add a massive new problem.
          Yes, they are improvised, but that is something the Germans excel at. Assuming this goes even halfway in their favor, within a few days they have the equivalent of about 2 to 3 divisions of troops landed in England. Yes, they have little heavy equipment or artillery, but they are in England.

          Even if the landing eventually fails, the trade off is Dunkirk is likely to surrender and the BEF is lost rather than withdrawn.

          The only complete division in England at this time (mid- June) is the 1st Canadian infantry division. Everything else is some sort of training formation that's half raised and generally without heavy equipment. The RAC has just a handful of mostly obsolete tanks available as the 1st Armored Division now in France took what was available with them.

          The big IF is could the Germans reinforce their initial success?

          Comment


          • #6
            So you're advocating a bold plan to actually allow dunkirk to happen as historical and go for broke to basically flank 85% of the strength of the British Army by invading England prior to the evacuation's completion?

            Very interesting. Prone to failure, but does have an X factor that would really play on the sheer shock value.

            Questions:

            1) Could the Luftwaffe concentrate enough to punch open and hold open a 72 hour window over some portion of Southern England while still providing at least minimal support to the effort in France? It wouldn't need to be air supremacy, but you'd need at least hotly contested airspace and periods of superiority.

            2) Which would be more important? A Port or an airfield. I have doubts that you could get both captured in operational condition. If you went for a port I think you could send a couple of FJ companies to perform a destructive raid on a nearby airfield and deny it, but not capture it. You'd really need the FJs in battalion strength at minimum as a blocking force while your 'landing troops' seized the port.

            Thought on this 'go for broke' plan:

            Since you're going for ending the war quickly by knocking out France adn Belgium and sending England to the negotiation table through panic, why not accept loss or potential loss of a couple of DDs. Do a 'Tokyo Express' and load up a pair of your fastest old DDs with fresh troops and infantry guns and mortars and such, and have them do a full-speed night run directly to whatever small port you seize? Accept that there is almost certainly no return trip, and instead the DDs will ground and become fixed artillery and flak batteries until they're destroyed.

            I'm figuring you could get maybe another battalion ashore that way, plus the guns, plus several batteries worth of mortars.

            I wouldn't even consider trying to bring over tanks or armored cars. Too fuel and space intensive for this plan. I would tell troops to live off the land for food and water, and have them seize civilian vehicles and put flags on the boot lids for identification for mobility.
            Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

            Comment


            • #7
              So you're advocating a bold plan to actually allow dunkirk to happen as historical and go for broke to basically flank 85% of the strength of the British Army by invading England prior to the evacuation's completion?

              Very interesting. Prone to failure, but does have an X factor that would really play on the sheer shock value.

              Questions:

              1) Could the Luftwaffe concentrate enough to punch open and hold open a 72 hour window over some portion of Southern England while still providing at least minimal support to the effort in France? It wouldn't need to be air supremacy, but you'd need at least hotly contested airspace and periods of superiority.

              2) Which would be more important? A Port or an airfield. I have doubts that you could get both captured in operational condition. If you went for a port I think you could send a couple of FJ companies to perform a destructive raid on a nearby airfield and deny it, but not capture it. You'd really need the FJs in battalion strength at minimum as a blocking force while your 'landing troops' seized the port.

              Thought on this 'go for broke' plan:

              Since you're going for ending the war quickly by knocking out France adn Belgium and sending England to the negotiation table through panic, why not accept loss or potential loss of a couple of DDs. Do a 'Tokyo Express' and load up a pair of your fastest old DDs with fresh troops and infantry guns and mortars and such, and have them do a full-speed night run directly to whatever small port you seize? Accept that there is almost certainly no return trip, and instead the DDs will ground and become fixed artillery and flak batteries until they're destroyed.

              I'm figuring you could get maybe another battalion ashore that way, plus the guns, plus several batteries worth of mortars.

              I wouldn't even consider trying to bring over tanks or armored cars. Too fuel and space intensive for this plan. I would tell troops to live off the land for food and water, and have them seize civilian vehicles and put flags on the boot lids for identification for mobility.
              Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
                So you're advocating a bold plan to actually allow dunkirk to happen as historical and go for broke to basically flank 85% of the strength of the British Army by invading England prior to the evacuation's completion?

                Very interesting. Prone to failure, but does have an X factor that would really play on the sheer shock value.
                Yes. The Germans could have put about 20,000 troops in England before the end of June doing this if they really pushed to make it happen.
                You drop the say, 4-5,000 paras you have. The 22nd follows bringing in by transport and glider about 10,000. The, say, 6 infantry divisions each push 1,000 across in separate convoys of whatever they can scrape together to send them.

                Questions:

                1) Could the Luftwaffe concentrate enough to punch open and hold open a 72 hour window over some portion of Southern England while still providing at least minimal support to the effort in France? It wouldn't need to be air supremacy, but you'd need at least hotly contested airspace and periods of superiority.
                Here, all the Luftwaffe has to do is heavily escort the Ju 52 for the initial drops and for some of the following flights in. The RAF is in a much worse position than they were even a month later and they still have to deal with the Luftwaffe over Dunkirk.
                Once you have a beachhead established, air superiority isn't as critical over England. What matters is reinforcing and supplying the beachhead.

                2) Which would be more important? A Port or an airfield. I have doubts that you could get both captured in operational condition. If you went for a port I think you could send a couple of FJ companies to perform a destructive raid on a nearby airfield and deny it, but not capture it. You'd really need the FJs in battalion strength at minimum as a blocking force while your 'landing troops' seized the port.
                The airfield(s) allow the flying in of additional troops and supplies. The ports allow much heavier reinforcement once you have one, and they will be critical for mass supply later. If the FJ can take a few airfields in Southern England, and between them and the seaborne forces make others unusable due to proximity or air attack, the RAF loses much of its ability to defend that part of the country. The loss of Chain Home radar would leave a huge gap in coverage and degrade the defense also.


                Thought on this 'go for broke' plan:

                Since you're going for ending the war quickly by knocking out France adn Belgium and sending England to the negotiation table through panic, why not accept loss or potential loss of a couple of DDs. Do a 'Tokyo Express' and load up a pair of your fastest old DDs with fresh troops and infantry guns and mortars and such, and have them do a full-speed night run directly to whatever small port you seize? Accept that there is almost certainly no return trip, and instead the DDs will ground and become fixed artillery and flak batteries until they're destroyed.

                I'm figuring you could get maybe another battalion ashore that way, plus the guns, plus several batteries worth of mortars.

                I wouldn't even consider trying to bring over tanks or armored cars. Too fuel and space intensive for this plan. I would tell troops to live off the land for food and water, and have them seize civilian vehicles and put flags on the boot lids for identification for mobility.
                If the BEF is all but lost and trapped in France to surrender, and the Wehrmacht has successfully landed in England with an established beachhead, however tenuous, the best ploy would be for Germany to ask for a reasonable armistice and end the war right there. The shock and awe might be just enough to get that to happen.

                As the Germans, you could run fast ships and small craft across the Channel nightly to ports to reinforce your landings. The same could be done with Ju 52 and even using He 111 to land on captured airfields. And, sending the KM to move troops would be perfectly acceptable, particularly in mid June before the RN and British figure out completely what's going on.

                The objective in the first few weeks would be to establish a lodgment that couldn't be eradicated in the next 6 to 12 months.

                Between the establishment of a beachhead, the loss of the BEF, the surrender of France, it might well be enough to get the British to agree to a peace that leaves Britain and her overseas possessions untouched.

                Comment


                • #9
                  How can the beachead last more than 12 hours ?
                  As soon as that night comes the Royal Navy with all its reserves will muster enough battleships and cruisers to outnumber the kreigsmarine 15-1 and destroy the beachhead and any hope of resupply by sea

                  Airsupply alone cannot sustain the beachead

                  I see only a great disaster for German , with almost all their Navy sunk and at least one third of their Air Force out of commission

                  And a great propoganda boost for the British , will also destroy the myth of German invincibility and may even encourage the Russians to attack them from the rear

                  Even if the best possible centenario almost a miraculous survival of beachhead for a few weeks happens even then the British might move their government a little further north and just sit it out , the Germans without a Navy cannot sustain the beach head from the air alone.The superiority in the air will eventually go to the British as they have a much higher number of aircraft reserves that they have the resources of a worldwide Empire to sustain war effort on the isles something which the Germans cannot ever hope to match esp when they cannot blockade all the ports

                  to use an example the second battle of narvik ( if I remember correctly )where the old Warspite and 10 destroyers essentially wiped out a modern german destroyer flottila
                  after Norway germans have barely 10 modern destroyers and about 6-8 T boats and similar number of F-boats they are not enough to form a "tokyo express" like force in the face of determined and overwhelming British naval forces
                  Last edited by nastle; 13 Mar 18, 10:24.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by nastle View Post
                    How can the beachead last more than 12 hours ?
                    As soon as that night comes the Royal Navy with all its reserves will muster enough battleships and cruisers to outnumber the kreigsmarine 15-1 and destroy the beachhead and any hope of resupply by sea

                    Airsupply alone cannot sustain the beachead

                    I see only a great disaster for German , with almost all their Navy sunk and at least one third of their Air Force out of commission

                    And a great propoganda boost for the British , will also destroy the myth of German invincibility and may even encourage the Russians to attack them from the rear

                    Even if the best possible centenario almost a miraculous survival of beachhead for a few weeks happens even then the British might move their government a little further north and just sit it out , the Germans without a Navy cannot sustain the beach head from the air alone.The superiority in the air will eventually go to the British as they have a much higher number of aircraft reserves that they have the resources of a worldwide Empire to sustain war effort on the isles something which the Germans cannot ever hope to match esp when they cannot blockade all the ports

                    to use an example the second battle of narvik ( if I remember correctly )where the old Warspite and 10 destroyers essentially wiped out a modern german destroyer flottila
                    after Norway germans have barely 10 modern destroyers and about 6-8 T boats and similar number of F-boats they are not enough to form a "tokyo express" like force in the face of determined and overwhelming British naval forces
                    The problem is the RN can't stay in the Channel come daylight with larger ships without the very real possibility the Luftwaffe shows up in force and does to them what they did to the RN off Crete. And, naval gunfire won't wipe the forces ashore out any more than massed field artillery will.
                    The BEF is still stuck in France, and isn't getting off the beaches because of the diversion of forces to stop the German landing...

                    The Germans can afford to lose 20 to 30,000 men. The British can't afford to lose the 100,000 or so in France.

                    This isn't necessarily meant as a long-term "invade England and conqueror it" sort of thing. It's a force Britain to negotiate an end to the war thing. For all of Churchill's bluster, it might be just enough to force that to happen.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                      The problem is the RN can't stay in the Channel come daylight with larger ships without the very real possibility the Luftwaffe shows up in force and does to them what they did to the RN off Crete.
                      Which was hit one or two ships almost every day.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        At Crete, every RN ship bigger than a destroyer was damaged or sunk in that battle, and 15 of 32 destroyers that took part were either damaged or sunk. That's crippling losses.

                        The Germans can send reinforcements using whatever they can scrape up for shipping at night relatively easily. The crossing could be made in complete, or near complete darkness in anything that can make about 5 or more knots

                        But, this scenario certainly does pose a dilemma for the British, and that's what you want in warfare for your opponent to have.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Ok....at 2 ships per day, how long can the RN afford to expend battleships and cruisers?
                          Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            At night Luftwaffe is absent and RN can wreck havoc remember what they did in Crete?
                            KM has no ships even for the initial assault, that cannot penetrate the even screening force of RN cruisers and destroyers
                            Also remember in Crete Luftwaffe was unchallenged
                            In the channel they have to content with RAF
                            The British can easily lose 100 k , their ports are open and they can get thousands of Indians Canadians and commonwealth troops if needed

                            Germans can lose 20 k but the real loss will be half of Luftwaffe and all of their navy

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
                              Ok....at 2 ships per day, how long can the RN afford to expend battleships and cruisers?
                              No battleships were seriously damaged by air attack off Crete if I remember correctly

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