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Defeat of Germany in World War II Was Possible Without U.S. Help, Russians Say

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  • Originally posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
    the Germans had to use 9 panzer divisions and 9 Infantry divs (plus several battlegroups) to try to contain the Allies in the
    Those battlegroups are generally remnants of Infantry Divisions...

    It's the density of forces on the British front that's most impressive on that map; 7 Pz divisions (4 of them SS), 7 Infantry Divisions and 4 Tiger battalions in less than 50 miles of front.

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    • The USSR would never be alone, neither would be France and Britain .

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      • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
        The USSR would never be alone, neither would be France and Britain .
        Thats not the concept of a "what if" ...
        One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.

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        • France and Britain could help the USSR even without declaring war on Germany : their very existence would tie German resources . 50 german divisions were tied in june 1941 by Britain's decision to continue the war . As many,or more would be tied if France and Britain were ,for the time being, neutral . This is not the case of the US :as long as the US did not declare war on Germany, they would not tie German resources .


          The OP is very imprecise : it does not mention the attitude of Britain ,while the attitude of Britain was determining and limiting the help of the US :without Britain, I see no US intervention on the continent and US aid would be limited to a sparse LL (if there was a US intervention ) .If US did not aid Britain, why should it help the SU ? The Wasps had a lot of sympathy for Britain, but not much for the SU .

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          • Originally posted by Hanov View Post
            Thats not the concept of a "what if" ...
            ...and thus belongs in Alternative Timelines.
            Will no one tell me what she sings?--
            Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
            For old, unhappy, far-off things,
            And battles long ago:
            -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

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            • After careful consideration, thread being moved to Alternate timelines as that is the direction the thread keeps heading in.
              Thank you
              ACG Staff
              Last edited by CarpeDiem; 06 Sep 17, 10:50.

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              • Originally posted by Aber View Post
                Those battlegroups are generally remnants of Infantry Divisions...
                It's the density of forces on the British front that's most impressive on that map; 7 Pz divisions (4 of them SS), 7 Infantry Divisions and 4 Tiger battalions in less than 50 miles of front.
                Yes, to his credit Monty faced down all the heavy metal the Germans could throw at him..



                Canadians inspecting Jagdpanther wreck

                http://www.mission4today.com/index.p...iewforum&f=134
                Last edited by Poor Old Spike; 07 Sep 17, 08:02.

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                • Originally posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
                  Yes, to his credit Monty faced down all the heavy metal the Germans could throw at him..



                  Canadians inspecting Jagdpanther wreck

                  http://www.mission4today.com/index.p...iewforum&f=134
                  with air and naval superiority

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                  • Originally posted by pamak View Post
                    In this case, I think there are two separate issues

                    1. If the USSR could win without a US help
                    2 If the USSR could win alone
                    There are really only two valid comparison points:

                    1. Germany + Allies versus SU + Allies
                    or
                    2. Germany by itself versus SU by itself

                    In either case the SU wins.

                    When someone tries to construct an utterly invalid comparison of Germany + Allies versus the SU by itself, their motivations are suspect. We have seen many a fanboy try it, though. It is clear that the interests of the Western democracies were best served by helping the Soviet Union during its war with Nazi Germany. So they were going to help, no matter what. For example the USA sold weapons to the Soviet Union in the summer of 1941 which is BEFORE the first lend lease protocol. They even extended credit to the Soviet Union for those purchases.

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                    • I doubt it.

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                      • I have serious doubts the Soviet Union could have won on its own. The most likely outcome is a stalemate. The Germans don't have the means to overrun the Soviet Union or eliminate enough of its economy to force a surrender.
                        On the other hand, without Lend Lease and Allied offensives in the West (from the Bomber offensive to North Africa, to Italy, to D-Day) the Soviets on their own are not going to muster up an offensive army that can defeat the Germans.

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                        • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                          I have serious doubts the Soviet Union could have won on its own. The most likely outcome is a stalemate. The Germans don't have the means to overrun the Soviet Union or eliminate enough of its economy to force a surrender.
                          ...
                          The stop-line was the Urals, the Germans never planned on going any farther than that.

                          But with the west out of the picture, Japan could have gone for Siberia. In any case, there still would have been a rump-state of some sort, with little in the way of population or infrastructure.
                          Hitler foolishly welcomed the idea of a permanent state of low-intensity war on the frontier of the Reich, thinking that it would keep the German people hard and ready for more war.

                          Maybe Iran would have scooped up Turkmenistan and a couple of other 'stans'... in fact, it is hard to see them not doing so if the opportunity was there.
                          "Why is the Rum gone?"

                          -Captain Jack

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