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Could proper planning have won WW2 for Italy?

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  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
    ...
    The problem you would run into is who would crew the captured vessels? The Royal Navy was just thick enough in the Indian Ocean to cut off Italian East Africa from outside contact.

    Pruitt
    The raiders had "prize crews", squads of armed men in most cases, who supervised the captive crews.
    And it would not be a one-way trip to Somalia or Massawa, The raiders could pick them up later or an Italian ship could arrange to meet the Raider at some point.

    But what I am really looking for is an arrangement that would allow those tankers (one had Avgas!) to be sent to Mog before the war starts for Italy in June of 1940.
    Sneaky, underhanded and dangerous... but this is Fascist Italy we are talking about.

    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    The Germans did do that to an extent. There were several German merchant ships in Massawa that were loaded with supplies for these raiders. They were sunk as block ships shortly before the Italian surrender. Some like the SS Liebenfelds was later raised and repaired being put into Allied merchant service as the Empire Nile. One hold was filled with sea mines for example.

    There were 8 other German merchants in Italian East Africa: Bertram Rickmers, Coburg, Crefeld, Oder, Oliva, Wartenfels, Frauenfels and Gera
    Oh, I know that ship well, it is earmarked for the invasion of Aden.
    SS Lichtenfels was one of the world's first modern heavy lift ship, built for DDG Hansa in 1929. She was equipped with a 120*t (118 long tons; 132 short tons) boom crane capable of lifting fully assembled locomotives, which were shipped to India
    .

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Lichtenfels

    I don't have anything much on the other ships, but I will look again.

    Leave a comment:


  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
    I hope we can make that happen someday.
    Would we need someone to play the British side?


    Something interesting that I just stumbled across; a number of tankers were taken by German Raiders in the Indian Ocean in 1940, and most were burned!
    That seems like a terrible waste to me, considering that IEA was right there.
    Couldn't an agreement have been made, one that would allow the Germans to pre-position supplies for the raiders in IEA in exchange for some of the loot?
    The Germans did do that to an extent. There were several German merchant ships in Massawa that were loaded with supplies for these raiders. They were sunk as block ships shortly before the Italian surrender. Some like the SS Liebenfelds was later raised and repaired being put into Allied merchant service as the Empire Nile. One hold was filled with sea mines for example.

    Empire Nile
    Empire Nile was a 6,318 GRT cargo ship which was built by AG Weser, Bremen. Completed in 1922 as Liebenfels for DDG Hansa, Bremen. On 4 April 1941 she was set on fire and scuttled at Massawa, Italian Eritrea. Later salvaged by Edward Ellsberg, an American Naval officer in charge of salvaging ships and facilities at Massawa, in 1942 and renamed Empire Nile. Sold in 1947 to Oceanic Navigation Co, Calcutta and renamed Alipur. Sold in 1948 to Dah Loh Navigation Co, China and renamed Dah Kiang. Sold in 1951 to Great China Steamship & Industrial Co, Panama and renamed El Grande, the sold later that year to the Chinese Government and renamed Ho Ping I. Renamed Shen Li in 1967. Name removed from shipping registers in 1977 and reported to have been scrapped in China but she was sighted in Shanghai in 1979 named Zhan Dou 75 and old name of Sheng Li visible.
    There were 8 other German merchants in Italian East Africa: Bertram Rickmers, Coburg, Crefeld, Oder, Oliva, Wartenfels, Frauenfels and Gera

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  • Pruitt
    replied
    My Father-in-Law was taken Prisoner of War off South Africa by a German Raider at the start of 1942. These Merchant Seamen were told they could eat whatever they wanted out of the captured food in the hold, but could not waste any. The Raider went to the Dutch East Indies and dropped off the POW's. A couple of months later they were guests of the Emperor in Japan. He ended up as a Cook in a Coal Mine.

    The problem you would run into is who would crew the captured vessels? The Royal Navy was just thick enough in the Indian Ocean to cut off Italian East Africa from outside contact.

    Pruitt

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
    Years ago I did a outline of a strategic game modeling Italys war 1940-43. The object was for the Italian player to somehow come out better than Italy did by mid 1943. Like the other projects on my table this was shelved a decade ago. Be interesting to consider the points in this thread if I have any time for further work on this game.
    I hope we can make that happen someday.
    Would we need someone to play the British side?


    Something interesting that I just stumbled across; a number of tankers were taken by German Raiders in the Indian Ocean in 1940, and most were burned!
    That seems like a terrible waste to me, considering that IEA was right there.
    Couldn't an agreement have been made, one that would allow the Germans to pre-position supplies for the raiders in IEA in exchange for some of the loot?

    Leave a comment:


  • Poor Old Spike
    replied
    Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
    Could proper planning have won WW2 for Italy?
    Not a chance! Italians are a decent peace-loving race, so their hearts were never in the war and they therefore had absolutely no motivation to try to win it..

    Leave a comment:


  • Carl Schwamberg
    replied
    Years ago I did a outline of a strategic game modeling Italys war 1940-43. The object was for the Italian player to somehow come out better than Italy did by mid 1943. Like the other projects on my table this was shelved a decade ago. Be interesting to consider the points in this thread if I have any time for further work on this game.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    I would love to have a War Game with this, even if the opposing player would have the dope on what I was going to try to do. That might even be realistic, considering Ultra and all.
    The hard part would be finding a good Umpire...

    Having been so focused on East Africa for so long, I should go back to the general situation for a bit. The Army has already been re-distributed, so its time for the Air Force to be parceled out.

    At the start these were the numbers, and I will post them as I think would have been best;



    —Fighters- -
    177 x Cr.32*
    (18 Rhodes, 18 Albania, 36 N. Africa, 36 Sicily, remainder Home/Reserve)
    300 x Cr.42*
    ( 108 Home/France, 90 Africa, 54 Sicily, others; Reserve)
    236 x Fiat G.50
    (36 Rhodes, 81 Home/France, 90 Sardinia/Sicily/N.Africa)
    144 x M.C. 200 Saetta
    (Home-France)
    28 x Re 2000 (prep for IEA, need drop-tanks)
    (Home)
    156 x C200 Macchi
    (54 France, 72 N.Africa, 18 Sicily)

    (*minus 18 ea. in Ethiopia)


    — Ground Attack- -
    154 x Breda Ba.65
    (81 to France, 18 to Malta, 54 to N. Africa)

    —Bombers—
    594 x SM.79 (minus 12-24 in Ethiopia)
    (192 Home/France, 96 Africa, 144 Sicily/Sardinia, 54 Rhodes, 24 MORE to IEA)
    80? x Br.20 (four wings)
    (Home)
    300 x SM.81 {-60Eth)
    (96 Home/France, 96 Sicily/Africa, 36 Rhodes)



    CANT 1007 (not yet ready)

    —Light Bomber/Transports —
    250 x Ca.133 {-60Eth}
    (180 Home/Reserve, 70 IEA)
    34 x SM.75
    (transports go where needed, on a daily basis)
    100? x SM.84
    (Home-everywhere)

    -Recon-
    280 x Iman-Ro 37 (30 squads/ 215 aircraft) ( 9+ Eth)
    (By Squadrons of 9 each, 15 as follows; 4 x France/Home, 1 x Scicily, 6 x N, Africa, 1 x Albania, 1 x IEA, 2 x Home. The other 15 are in reserve at Home or in that theater)

    —Seaplanes—
    202 x Cant. Z.501 aircraft were in service in 15 squadrons (poor performers)

    97 x Cant Z.506b
    22 Sardinia, 25 Brindisi (that is actual basing, I would place two dozen in the Agean {Rhodes} as well.



    Distribution of major combat types by theater-

    France/Home - 108 x Cr.42, 81 x Fiat G.50, 144 x M.C. Saetta, 54 x C200 Macchi, 81 x Ba. 65, 192 x SM. 79, 96 x SM.81
    ((only half will be flying over France at any one time. The remainder are split between grounded for maintenance and on-call for Italy/Home service))
    {so a daily availability over France would involve over 150 fighters, 40 ground-attack, and nearly 150 bombers, many of them can fly more than once a day}

    Home/Reserve - about 40 x Cr. 32, 108 x Cr. 42 38 x Re2000, 80 x Br.20

    Sicily (malta) - 36 x Cr.32, 54 x Cr.42, 30 x G.50, 18 x C200 Maachi, 18 x Breda Ba.65, 72 x SM.79, 48 x SM.81,

    Sardinia - 30 x G.50, 72 x SM.79,

    N. Africa - 36 x Cr.32, 90 x Cr.42, 30 x G.50, 72 C200 Macchi, 54 x Ba.65, 96 x SM.79, 48 x SM.82,

    Rhodes - 18 x Cr.32, 36 x G.50, 54 x SM.79, 7 x Ro,44 floatplane fighter

    Albania - 18 x Cr.32,


    You have to admit, that is a heck of a lot of airpower, especially in comparison to what they are likely to be facing.

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  • ljadw
    replied
    The Italian qargument was that there was no need for plans after the war would be over a few weeks after the Italian DoW on june 6 1940.All Il Duce needed was a few thousands of deaths to sit on the negociation table ,where Adolf and he would dictate the peace conditions .

    Mussolini knew that he would lose a big part of his merchant fleet, but he expected to got them back after a few weeks .

    The alternative was to wait til 1943 when Italy would be ready, but when there would be no war .

    Mussolini acted as Argentina, Peru, Chili,Ecuador, Paraguay, Venezuela, KSA, Turkey,etc who declared war on Germany in 1945 to be on the winning side, without having any war plan.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Originally posted by ljadw View Post
    ...
    There was nothing wrong with the planning : the planning was adjusted on the possibilities and on the aims .There was no need to send the home army to NA, as the war would be over before the home army arrived in NA .
    Have a look at Page 1, this is all predicated on an Italian General Staff that gets started on this as soon as Poland falls in 1939.
    The plans Italy had were a joke, just terrible.
    When Japan opened up in late 1941, every plane, every ship and every man had a mission and went straight to it the very day the shooting started... if not sooner.

    The Italian Ari Force, as shown, took things seriously. Their readiness rate went from about 50% in Sept 1939 to 75% in June of 1940, why was everyone else so lackadaisical that year?

    I know its a long thread now, but one idea is that the military must demand 72 hours advanced notice, and I am showing that this could have been decisive.

    It would also have been very important to let the Germans know. There were 10 German ships interned at Massawa that would have been very helpful in taking Aden. Moreover, German Commerce Raiders were taking British tankers in the Indian Ocean in 1940, one was loaded with aviation fuel.
    They burned it!
    Think how useful that would have been for the IEA.

    Leave a comment:


  • ljadw
    replied
    Mussolini declared war because he was convinced that France and Britain were defeated and would very soon make peace (he was not the only to be convinced),thus it was a question to being present at the Conference of Berlin where Britain and France would hear what they would lose and meanwhile to grab what he could ;Mussolini needed a few thousands of dead,as Adolf said : if you want to eat, you must help in the kitchen . That Italy was not ready for a long war was no problem, as the fighting would last only a few weeks.
    There was nothing wrong with the planning : the planning was adjusted on the possibilities and on the aims .There was no need to send the home army to NA, as the war would be over before the home army arrived in NA .

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Well, I am officially POed...

    I ordered the best book on the subject I could find; Our First Victory... and Barns and Noble dropped the ball.
    The supplier cancelled the order, and they never even let me know.
    No wonder book stores are dying! Oh well, back to Amazon.


    Meanwhile, I have been searching for an answer to the mystery of those 126 armored cars. I was pretty much right about the Lancias and the 611s, including how useless they were in general. However, there were no AB-40 in that theater, and fewer of the above types than I had thought. At least half of what they were calling Armored Cars were trucks with plates of steel bolted on. So, the only benefit over the WW1 Lancia that most of them offered was a more modern drive-train.

    However...

    A lot of what the Brits had in the area were no better;


    That is a Boys AT rifle sticking out of the side.

    And some of that improve stuff was pretty good, the Italians had a habit of putting some nice heavy guns on the trucks-

    That is a Breda 20mm, in a rig similar to the ones that did a good job of breaking up LeClerc's first attempt to take Kufra in Libya, in the spring of 1941.

    I'm sure that three-dozen vehicles out of the 126 would have been good enough to preform the usual missions, by 1940 standards.

    And Michele was right about 45mm mortars on CV-35s;


    I'm not sure about liking that or not. You have to expose your hands, and loading that thing wasn't perfectly simple. On the other hand, you still have your twin MGs.
    I don't think that ammo will be much of an issue, the CV carried more than the Mark I did.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Originally posted by Michele View Post
    I see lots of logistical problems. Yes, logistics, transportation etc. can be improved with a better preparation - but those improvements and preparations would mostly go into just advancing into Egypt with a small motorized army (or at least a small motorized vanguard) and into connecting the hugely, hugely dispersed ends of the AOI. Many, many more trucks, and fuel, and rubber tires, and spare parts...
    This gives me a chance to go into something that I had not done yet-

    It is time to emphasize that major re-directions and transfers of forces are not going to happen.
    Once forces are committed to a certain direction or a certain front, they are committed for the duration.
    Period.
    Even a retrograd movement for anyone but horse or camel-mounted Cavalry might not be possible. Therefore, careful planning is absolutely essential in Italian East Africa.
    That's why I have been so focussed on it. There really isn't much margin for error there.

    Down there, troops will have to scrounge for everything they can when they get into enemy territory, and they can't be gentlemen about it.

    The only major transfer we could look at it getting half of the 40th Division down to the Kenya front after they are done with Brit/French Somalia. The German Motorized Company will go there too, but that isn't a very major move.

    There are also 25 transport aircraft... which is kinda pathetic, but it's something. (the are also outwardly identical to the Bombers, being the same aircraft types... an interesting situation)

    Originally posted by Michele View Post
    If you add Khartoum, that's already a very daunting logistical effort...
    Ah, but that is the one where we have a very good transport situation.

    I outlined this before, the Blue Nile flows right from Ethiopia to Khartoum. A few rafts and a bunch of native boatmen (you WILL have to pay them, fairly) solves that issue nicely, and makes for a fine MSR for 65th Division and a similar number of Colonial Troops.
    The only problem is that is draws a very predictable line of advance. That sucks, but in the entire Sudan Britain only has 3 regular Battalions and 6 Colonial Companies... at the start.

    Taking Khartoum also does not guarantee a re-connection with Libya, but it does cut the Nile proper and the railroads, and would probably kill any British efforts to stir up the resistance to Italian rule in Etheopia.

    Originally posted by Michele View Post
    That's why I support quick coups against Malta (a classic idea) and Aden (a suggestion that I had not seriously considered before this thread): they have the advantage of actually being within a feasible distance in terms of range, logistics and resupply.
    Aden is only about 120 miles from Asab, I don't know why they didn't give it a try.
    That was a hugely valuable base for the Brits, both for basing aircraft and ships meant to keep the Red Sea open. They also sent reinforcements to Brit. Somalia, including the only 2 x AA guns they could spare.
    Two of the Battalions at Brit.Som. also came from or passed through Aden.

    But, again, pulling out of Aden would be very difficult. Some of the Eritreans could pull a fast one by passing through neutral Yemen and posing as civilians... but I think that only a few hundred would get away with it before that exit closed. The Alpine Battalion is light enough to be removed by air quickly... but the rest of the force committed is there for the duration.

    But long-term... I guess you have to be cold-blooded about it, and admit that the garrison of Aden is unlikely to last any longer than the supplies they capture there.
    The Brits will want it back, but they will have to commit more than a Division to be sure of overwhelming the 6-7 thousand men there. That means a Corps fighting in Arabia, instead of Africa.

    BTW; what was captured in Berbera is impressive, considering what a successful evacuation it was considered to be;
    De Simone wrote that the Italians captured five guns, five mortars, more than a hundred trucks, three Bren gun carriers, 30 anti-tank guns, 71 machine-guns, many small-arms and much ammunition.
    Foraging parties will also be important, which is why I included 500 x Cavalry, 3 x Tankettes and 3 x Armored Cars for Aden.

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  • Michele
    replied
    Originally posted by Marmat View Post
    ... historically, in May 1940, he wanted Malta and Cyprus from Britain, Nice, Savoy, Corsica, and Tunis from France plus Italian protectorates over Egypt, Syria and Iraq, and Sudan to be governed as an Italo-Egyptian Protectorate, just to intervene with Hitler for acceptable peace terms, and his own neutrality.
    Well, it wouldn't be beneath him to assume a start-bargain position of asking a lot to get something.

    That said, we could also rework the initial question, just to keep the intellectual exercise going. We might ask not whether Italy can be prepared so well as to win the war, for any definition of "winning"; we might just ask whether Italy can be better prepared (obviously yes; the real question is how), and thus achieve a better performance in the beginning of the war... presumably only to be defeated later anyway.
    That might still be a somewhat interesting question.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michele
    replied
    I see lots of logistical problems. Yes, logistics, transportation etc. can be improved with a better preparation - but those improvements and preparations would mostly go into just advancing into Egypt with a small motorized army (or at least a small motorized vanguard) and into connecting the hugely, hugely dispersed ends of the AOI. Many, many more trucks, and fuel, and rubber tires, and spare parts...

    If you add Khartoum, that's already a very daunting logistical effort. Cyprus, likewise, is not a big problem from the point of view of defeating its own defenders; it is an enormous problem when it comes to sending a force there and keeping it in supply.

    That's why I support quick coups against Malta (a classic idea) and Aden (a suggestion that I had not seriously considered before this thread): they have the advantage of actually being within a feasible distance in terms of range, logistics and resupply.

    Leave a comment:


  • MarkV
    replied
    Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
    That is exactly the idea here.

    Now, on the Mediterranean front, the only easy pick-ups I see are Malta and Cyprus. Even in Egypt, the best you can do is a somewhat deeper and more threatening penetration. If that happens in conjunction with the seizure of Khartoum, then it will be very threatening.
    The catch is, not only is it essential that all this happen in the first couple of months of the war, Italy is only capable of doing this in the first couple of months!

    What you need is a bit of a coupe' among the officer class, and some head-hunters making sure that all available resources are put to use. For example; the drive into Kenya was stopped because of the claim that there wasn't enough fuel to keep it going... and yet when the British tool Mogadishu half a year later they found 430,000 gallons of fuel.
    What they needed down there was a handful of roving I.G.s backed up by a Death Squad in the Fascist tradition.

    About Djibouti ... you are right, I need to dedicate force to hemming them in as tightly as possible.
    Now, what I have done with this front is to take half of the 180,000 Colonial troops available at the outset (not the additional troops raised later on) and give them all invasion jobs. This leaves a major pool of troops for internal security, and/or to relive troops at the front, and a Reserve for situations like this. I also only used 2 of the 6 Blackshirt Division's Battalions for anything but holding the Capitol.

    For example, here is what I have in mind for the Kenya front -


    It should have come out large enough to read ... oh well.

    So what you have there is a cavalry raid cutting across the rear areas (and getting a look at what will be the British defensive line later on) while four columns of a total of about 40,000 Colonial troops move in to overwhelm the three battalions of S. African troops and a brigade of Kenyan troops.
    As you will see (if it can be read) the operation is planned to be able to move if 25% of the Colonials don't show, and 1,000 can still be left out of each drive for other tasks. This is because if any one column is stopped, the Brits would still have to withdraw or be surrounded.

    It looks like an attempt to take all of Kenya, but it is not.



    Those are the stop-lines, using water-sources and favorable terrain to make a good defensive line.
    Even if the Italian Colonials could take Mombassa (doubtful) it would be pointless. British reinforcements would simply unload down at Dar-es-Salam and attack an over-extended line.
    THIS line is not over-estended, it is dramatically shortened.
    By drawing the line from the south end of Lake Rudolf to the mouth of the Juma River, the front shrinks from over 700 miles to just under 400. The Italian Generals regarded the southern tip of Somalia indefensible, and I won't second guess them.

    That Lake is huge, but help will be needed to keep it secure.
    Also note that 4 out of the 5 MTBs at Massawa (or whatever it is called) were written-off for mechanical issues. Well, you fight with the Navy you have, no point in beating your head against that wall... why not just take one with a sound hull, strip it of all mechanical gear except the props and steering gear, and turn it over to the Air Force. Have them put at 600-hp motor from a Cr.32 in it, and truck it (they were small enough) overland to the river above that Lake. Put a 20mm gun where the Torpedoes used to be, and upgrade the twin 8mm MGs with a 13.2mm.
    You now have a Patrol Boat that should be good for over 20 knots, and a much longer range than it had with 1500hp.
    It would be a hell of a lot better than anything the British have there, no question.

    So, about Djib.... I keep going the long way there....
    It would be easy to put 5,000 Colonials (the lesser Ethiopian type) there, would more be needed?
    After Aden falls, 7 x squadrons of SM.81 bombers and a squadron of Cr.42 fighters would instantly be available there, and it is very close to their bases.
    The SM.79 have to be held for anti-shipping missions.
    Unless the Italian Navy was a lot stronger none of this is more than a fever dream and not after Taranto

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