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UK never abandons Japan

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  • UK never abandons Japan

    After WWI, the UK had a choice to continue its alliance with Japan or ditch Japan and attempt to court America. In reality, the UK ditched Japan and Japan eventually paired with Germany. The UK ended up losing basically its entire empire in WWII.

    Let's say the UK continues its alliance with Japan. How do the 1920s-40s play out?

  • #2
    In order to do that, the British Empire would have had to abandon its policy of excluding Japanese immigration to places like Australia and New Zealand.

    Would they have been willing to do that?
    Better analyze what THAT would have resulted in, and how such an influx might have aided Japan's offensives in WW2.

    The UK might have kept its alliance, or maybe not, if they objected to what happened in China.
    Also; would Japan have been a more useful ally than the USA?
    "Why is the Rum gone?"

    -Captain Jack

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    • #3
      The Japanese wouldn't have continued it. They were using the French, then the British, to gain technological information and knowledge to move to home construction of warships and other technologies.
      Given the British take over of many German colonial possessions in Asia during WW 1, in lieu of these going to Japan, the Japanese have little reason to continue an alliance with Britain.

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      • #4
        There were British commercial links with China through Shanghai and Hong Kong. I don't see the British giving these to the Japanese. If there was one thing the British Government wanted to protect it was commercial business.

        Pruitt
        Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

        Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

        by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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        • #5
          There was a lot of sympathy for Japan amongst the British establishment that dated from the Ww1 alliance. Lord Semple was spying for the Japanese up until 1941.

          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will...empill#/search
          "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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          • #6
            Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
            In order to do that, the British Empire would have had to abandon its policy of excluding Japanese immigration to places like Australia and New Zealand.

            Would they have been willing to do that?
            These were purely policies in place by Australia and New Zealand which having Dominion status had no need to refer to Britain over this - there was no blanket Imperial policy such matters being in the competency of individual dominions and therefore none to be abandoned.
            Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
            Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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            • #7
              Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
              The Japanese wouldn't have continued it. They were using the French, then the British, to gain technological information and knowledge to move to home construction of warships and other technologies.
              Given the British take over of many German colonial possessions in Asia during WW 1, in lieu of these going to Japan, the Japanese have little reason to continue an alliance with Britain.
              The parceling out of German Pacific possessions between Japan, Australia and New Zealand was by mutual agreement (later confirmed by the League of Nations). There was never any case of "in lieu of these going to Japan"
              Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
              Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                There were British commercial links with China through Shanghai and Hong Kong. I don't see the British giving these to the Japanese. If there was one thing the British Government wanted to protect it was commercial business.

                Pruitt
                Why would continuing an alliance mean having to give Japan commercial links?
                Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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                • #9
                  The 1911 Naval Treaty was allowed to lapse in 1923 as a concession by Britain to the USA arising out of the Washington Naval Conference but in any case Japan was in no mood to renew it because of British and American insistence on limiting the size of her fleet. There was no actual formal alliance in place at the time other than this.
                  Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                  Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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                  • #10
                    And to take matters further at the heart of the treaty was an agreement to mutually support each other against naval threats to their strategic interests in the Far East and the Pacific. At the time this meant threats by Russia but in 1914 was deemed to include Germany. By 1923 the only other serious naval power in the Region was the USA.
                    Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                    Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                      These were purely policies in place by Australia and New Zealand which having Dominion status had no need to refer to Britain over this - there was no blanket Imperial policy such matters being in the competency of individual dominions and therefore none to be abandoned.
                      I'm not quite sure about that.I don't think Dominion Status was codified until the 1931 Statute of Westminster. The perception might have been that London still called the shots throughout the erstwhile Empire regardless of the legal niceties.
                      Last edited by BELGRAVE; 29 Aug 16, 16:56.
                      "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                      Samuel Johnson.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by BELGRAVE View Post
                        I'm not quite sure about that.I don't think Dominion Status was codified until the 1931 Statute of Westminster. The perception might have been that London still called the shots throughout the erstwhile Empire regardless of the legal niceties.
                        The immigration rules for Australia were passed in a number of Australian acts once a federal government was established completely independently of Britain apart from the Royal assent which was essentially a formality.

                        The Commonwealth of Australia was recognised as a dominion in 1901 by royal proclamation, New Zealand followed by the same method in 1907. Surely you know your own history?
                        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                          The immigration rules for Australia were passed in a number of Australian acts once a federal government was established completely independently of Britain apart from the Royal assent which was essentially a formality.

                          The Commonwealth of Australia was recognised as a dominion in 1901 by royal proclamation, New Zealand followed by the same method in 1907. Surely you know your own history?
                          Edit The powers of the Australian government were clearly laid out in the Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act of 1900
                          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                            The immigration rules for Australia were passed in a number of Australian acts once a federal government was established completely independently of Britain apart from the Royal assent which was essentially a formality.

                            The Commonwealth of Australia was recognised as a dominion in 1901 by royal proclamation, New Zealand followed by the same method in 1907. Surely you know your own history?
                            All of what you say is true (yes, strangely enough I was aware of it), nevertheless, it was not until the passing of the Statute of Westminster, that complete autonomy was assured and not entirely even then.

                            ".... Britain has declared war upon her ,and, as a result Australia is also at war" Robert Menzies, September, 1939, announcing Australia's position following the German invasion of Poland. Some independence !

                            (Yes, I know, Australia would have entered war anyway, but Menzies, at least -and he was a lawyer - knew exactly what he was saying ).

                            Besides which, foreign opinions about the exact relationship between the various elements that constituted "The British Empire" were uncertain enough to muddy the waters. ( vide the "Australia Act", 1986, passed by both Parliaments, London and Canberra )
                            Last edited by BELGRAVE; 30 Aug 16, 04:03.
                            "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                            Samuel Johnson.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by BELGRAVE View Post
                              All of what you say is true (yes, strangely enough I was aware of it), nevertheless, it was not until the passing of the Statute of Westminster, that complete autonomy was assured and not entirely even then.

                              "Britain has declared war upon her ,and, as a result Australia is also at war" Robert Menzies, September, 1939, announcing Australia's position following the German invasion of Poland. Some independence !

                              (Yes, I know, Australia would have entered war anyway, but Menzies, at least -and he was a lawyer - knew exactly what he was saying ).

                              Besides which, foreign opinions about the exact relationship between the various elements that constituted "The British Empire" were uncertain enough to muddy the waters. ( vide the "Australia Act", 1986, passed by both Parliaments, London and Canberra )
                              The British prime minister had in that case declared war using the Royal prerogative and therefore included in his declaration all the King's realms. This caused quite some reactions (especially in Canada) as the dominions considered that they should have been consulted and given their consent. However it was about the only instance where the British prime minister could unilaterally commit the dominions and even then its legality was seriously called into question.

                              The Dominions very clearly had home rule and that included immigration law. The "White Australia" policy was enshrined in Australian legislation in which Britain played no part. The degree of independence was very clearly displayed in WW1 when Australia twice decided not to introduce conscription.
                              Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                              Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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