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Convoy PQ17 - Wichita & Tuscaloosa versus Tirpitz & Admiral Hipper

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  • #16
    I was just having fun when starting this thread in response to idea of the Iowa facing off with the Bismark as a scenario that could have really happened between German and American ships. I hadn't really thought out the vast differences between the size of the German ships and the American ones till you really brought it to my attention.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by OttoHarkaman View Post
      I was just having fun when starting this thread in response to idea of the Iowa facing off with the Bismark as a scenario that could have really happened between German and American ships. I hadn't really thought out the vast differences between the size of the German ships and the American ones till you really brought it to my attention.
      Fun is what it's all about friend, and I'm sorry if it seems as if we jumped down your throat a bit back there, it's just that we've had some real mad cap loons on here in the past who absolutely insist that what they say must be.

      It is obvious from your last post that you are not in their ranks.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by flash View Post
        Fun is what it's all about friend



        There is an interesting boardgame by GMT about the PQ-17 convoy, I haven't had a chance to really look at it but the map looks beautiful.

        PQ-17: Arctic Naval Operations 1941-43





        https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/...ations-1941-43

        http://www.gmtgames.com/p-126-pq-17.aspx

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        • #19
          Two Cruisers vs. a Cruiser and a Battleship?
          In other words 30,000 tons vs 60,000 tons of warships.

          To put it simply, [B]NO[/B JOY for the Alliues. They would have had to get lucky, the Germans would only have had to shoot straight.
          "Why is the Rum gone?"

          -Captain Jack

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          • #20
            Yes I fired off my post before I had really thought things out. I blame the Spainish Catalunya red wine I was drinking

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            • #21
              Originally posted by flash View Post
              Why do people think that two heavy cruisers would or could take on and defeat a pocket battleship and a battleship?

              18 X 9" guns versus 8 X 15" and 6 X 11" guns?

              11' and 15' guns against >200mm armour.

              9' guns against >200 armour and >360mm armour.

              I suspect the BB would order its "little" sister home while it smashes the two impertinent cruisers into razor blades.
              The Hipper was a heavy cruiser, not a pocket battleship.

              Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
              Two Cruisers vs. a Cruiser and a Battleship?
              In other words 30,000 tons vs 60,000 tons of warships.

              To put it simply, [B]NO[/B JOY for the Alliues. They would have had to get lucky, the Germans would only have had to shoot straight.
              How quickly we forget the Battle off Samar. The DD's, DE's and CVE's didn't have a chance against the Japanese Main Force either, did they? I think the Germans would have run for home at the first hint of major (larger than DD) Allied surface units. They were afraid to get their ships scratched and endure Hitler's wrath.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
                Two Cruisers vs. a Cruiser and a Battleship?
                In other words 30,000 tons vs 60,000 tons of warships.

                To put it simply, [B]NO[/B JOY for the Alliues. They would have had to get lucky, the Germans would only have had to shoot straight.
                Read up on the Battle of North Cape (aka Scharnhorst's death ride).

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_North_Cape

                Cruisers and destroyers did what I expounded on earlier. They dogged and sniped at Scharnhorst using their superior radar and fire controls leaving the German ship blind (knocked out the few radar it had fitted) until the Duke of York could close and finish her off.

                Here, the same thing would happen. The cruisers and destroyers would shadow the Germans, moving in for quick exchanges of gunfire at opportune times. Once the Germans had suffered some topside damage and had systems like radar knocked out, they could be dogged without serious threat of retaliation.

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                • #23
                  I also have to wonder now, why wasn't a battleship assigned to escort this important convoy? Even an old battleship would seemed to have totally tipped the scales. Like my question on the Bismark thread, why did units seem so miss-deployed?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by OttoHarkaman View Post
                    I also have to wonder now, why wasn't a battleship assigned to escort this important convoy? Even an old battleship would seemed to have totally tipped the scales. Like my question on the Bismark thread, why did units seem so miss-deployed?
                    There were two battle ships covering the convoy, Duke of York and Washington.
                    Last edited by Surrey; 30 Jul 16, 14:37.
                    "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by OttoHarkaman View Post
                      I also have to wonder now, why wasn't a battleship assigned to escort this important convoy? Even an old battleship would seemed to have totally tipped the scales. Like my question on the Bismark thread, why did units seem so miss-deployed?
                      Like Surrey said, there were two battleships. Important convoys normally had three cover groups. The first was the close cover group, which was with the convoy from start to finish. There was a second escort group of DDs and DEs, which added to the AS screen during the most dangerous part of the journey. Then there was the distant cover group, which stayed near a central area, where they could cover whichever convoy was attacked by surface ships. This is the one that included the battleships.

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                      • #26
                        The problem with ...

                        Originally posted by OttoHarkaman View Post
                        I also have to wonder now, why wasn't a battleship assigned to escort this important convoy? Even an old battleship would seemed to have totally tipped the scales. Like my question on the Bismark thread, why did units seem so miss-deployed?
                        ... battleships is that big guns were seldom really required, because there was seldom a viable German surface big gun threat in the Arctic to counter. In practice it was aircraft and submarines that were actually attacking Arctic Convoys and sinking merchant ships. It naturally follows that to operate in that environment, battleships required top end AA, a decent turn of speed, their own ASW escort, and the ability to maneuver to avoid attack. That requirement precludes the use of older, slower unmodernized BBs lacking sufficient AA travelling with a convoy for big gun support as they had in the Atlantic. In practice, for the RN, it means using modern KGV battleships, and the updated Renown, and the USN it means NC's & SoDaks, and because of their cost and value, they can't be risked being in the same locale as the convoy, and subjected to the same concentrated attacks by aircraft and submarines. They are to remain far enough away to avoid enemy contact, yet close enough to respond to and counter a like viable surface threat to the convoy. Because of the the air and sub threat, Arctic convoys were limited and/or cancelled if AA & ASW close escort weren't available because of alternate requirements i.e. like Torch for example, but not because of a shortage of modern BB's; that's just the way it worked.
                        Last edited by Marmat; 31 Jul 16, 10:00. Reason: grammar
                        "I am Groot"
                        - Groot

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by johns624 View Post
                          The Hipper was a heavy cruiser, not a pocket battleship.

                          How quickly we forget the Battle off Samar. The DD's, DE's and CVE's didn't have a chance against the Japanese Main Force either, did they? I think the Germans would have run for home at the first hint of major (larger than DD) Allied surface units. They were afraid to get their ships scratched and endure Hitler's wrath.
                          The Hipper was one of a three off, they were neither fish nor fowl, they were designed to be great at commerce raiding and nothing more!

                          But yes, you could class Hipper as a heavy cruiser in the line of battle, just a heavy cruiser with teeth far in excess of any allied Heavy cruiser.

                          The Germans HAD to run for home if threatened with anything more than a popgun, this was made clear in Admiral Beys orders and when on that cold dark and windswept night he came to meet his match he was on a course that would have taken him home

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by flash View Post
                            The Hipper was one of a three off, they were neither fish nor fowl, they were designed to be great at commerce raiding and nothing more!

                            But yes, you could class Hipper as a heavy cruiser in the line of battle, just a heavy cruiser with teeth far in excess of any allied Heavy cruiser.

                            The Germans HAD to run for home if threatened with anything more than a popgun, this was made clear in Admiral Beys orders and when on that cold dark and windswept night he came to meet his match he was on a course that would have taken him home
                            The Graf Spee, Scheer and Lutzow (ex-Deutchland) were the pocket battleships.
                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutschland-class_cruiser
                            The Hipper, Prince Eugen and Blucher were 8in gunned conventional heavy cruisers.
                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admira...-class_cruiser

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                            • #29
                              The Hipper was a Heavy Cruiser but a big one! They were designed for 14,000 tons and full load were 18,000! I don't like their four dual main gun turrets. I think they should have gone three triples. They could have used the weight saved for better armor. Like most large German Navy ships they used more subdivision and less armor in the belt. Their machinery took a while to get right and they were a bit short ranged for their mission.

                              I think the IJN Tone Class were better. They packed the same main gun armament in the front of the ship. They also carried Torpedoes!

                              If I can't have a Baltimore, I will take a Wichita. They were bigger than the Treaty Class Heavy Cruisers and better protected.

                              I think the British County Class were great for what the British needed, but they were also built in the Twenties and I think were showing their age by 1939. The eight inch gun turrets were over complicated as someone want them to fire high angles against aircraft! A simpler triple turret would have done them better. Once again, the weight saved could have been put to use elsewheres. I think they were a touch slower than the competition as well.

                              Pruitt
                              Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                              Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                              by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                                The Hipper was a Heavy Cruiser but a big one! They were designed for 14,000 tons and full load were 18,000!

                                Pruitt
                                Heavy cruisers, none the less. I'll take a Baltimore any day of the week. Besides, in the first post of flash's that I referenced, he mentioned 11 inch guns. He's just a little confused...
                                PS- Yeah, Blucher was so bad-azzed that it was sunk by Norwegian shore batteries.

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