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  • #76
    Hi

    Hope this is of interest:-

    This is a link to the record of activities of the aforementioned 11th MCM, very informative it is too.

    http://www.mcdoa.org.uk/the_forgotte..._falklands.htm

    Regards

    Andy H
    "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

    "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

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    • #77
      T. A. Gardner's


      Britain originally didn't bring those initially. Britain's available ones in the "Hunt" and "Ton" classes are relatively short ranged (about 2500 miles) and designed for coastal work.
      The one Hunt available (HMS Brecon) is really the only up-to-date one in service. The Ton class (14 in service) date to the Korean war. Their mine hunting equipment is obsolescent at best.
      All of these are armed with a 40mm Bofors, and couple of 20mm AA guns so they're pretty much defenseless against modern aircraft.

      Just getting these small ships there would be a challenge. You'd have to make sure they went with a tanker to refuel them. They make maybe 10 knots sustained so they'd be a while getting there. They weigh in at about 350 tons and are going to have to avoid bad weather on the way.
      So what approach could the argentinians employ to destroy the MCM vessels ?

      How much escort was the MCM vessels given ?

      How vulnerable are they when they are cleaning up mines ?

      if lets say they destroy most of the MCM vessels , how much will this disrupt the operations of the RN and the landing on falklands ?

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      • #78
        I'd think if the British had found the Argentines had placed mines, and ones that are difficult to sweep, they could have gotten the US to loan them several minesweeping sleds, and possibly even the tow helicopters to do the job. Beyond that, they could have used their EOD team(s) with divers to take out any really obstinate or difficult to sweep mines.



        If I were the Argies, I'd put some well protected artillery to cover the fields. All you'd need is a hit or two on a MCM to with something in the 100 to 150mm range to pretty much make them think twice about continuing operations. The RN wasn't particularly well equipped for shore bombardment.

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        • #79
          lets say right before the Falklands scenario the argentinian navy acquires a squadron or two of Su-24 Fencers from USSR on lease
          ofcourse they are not equipped with any specialized Anti-ship missiles , but they do have the AS-14 and AS-12 short range weapons and a variety of LGBs
          How will that change the threat to RN surface fleet ?

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          • #80
            The problem wasn't with the Argentinian Air Force. They fought well. It was the ground forces that were beaten by the British. When you have arguably the best adhoc light infantry division ever put together (2 Para, 3 RM, 1 Gurkha and 2 Guards battalions) up against conscripts, they are going to win.
            PS-I know it was actually 2 Brigades, but 8 infantry battalions is very close to a division.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by nastle View Post
              lets say right before the Falklands scenario the argentinian navy acquires a squadron or two of Su-24 Fencers from USSR on lease
              ofcourse they are not equipped with any specialized Anti-ship missiles , but they do have the AS-14 and AS-12 short range weapons and a variety of LGBs
              How will that change the threat to RN surface fleet ?
              I doubt it would make much difference, if any at all. The combat range of the Fencer is far less than a Mirage III. So, the available few Su 24's would have to lug lots of drop tanks just to make the round trip, and they'd be limited to non-afterburner flight regimes.
              They'd still be on their own for targeting.

              Then comes the issue of trying to maintain them. Soviet gear generally doesn't have a high time of use to maintenance ratio. Instead, most of their stuff works for very limited times and needs serious maintenance afterwards. It is designed for quantity use and often almost use and toss rather than designed for prolonged operational use.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by nastle View Post
                lets say right before the Falklands scenario the argentinian navy acquires a squadron or two of Su-24 Fencers from USSR on lease
                ofcourse they are not equipped with any specialized Anti-ship missiles , but they do have the AS-14 and AS-12 short range weapons and a variety of LGBs
                How will that change the threat to RN surface fleet ?
                Any threat increase would have been minimal, at best. Just because they take possession of the equipment does not mean they also immediately magically acquire the requisite skills. Just because they fired Exocets does not mean they know all there is to know about AS-14 and AS-12. I do not think that they had any LGB in their inventory at the time. So, years are needed to gain sufficient proficiency with systems to be effective.
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                • #83
                  Originally posted by BF69 View Post
                  Argentina had plenty of brave blokes prepared to slog through mud...and mountains. Unfortunately for Argentina the vast majority of them were sitting on the Chilean border.
                  I read one claim that the competent troops were also kept on the mainland to quell potential political unrest that might depose the junta. Was there any truth to it?
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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Herman Hum View Post
                    I read one claim that the competent troops were also kept on the mainland to quell potential political unrest that might depose the junta. Was there any truth to it?
                    I haven't heard that before and it would seem to involve more insight into the potential fallout from the invasion that is indicated by the planning. They acted like it would be a well armed picnic that would result in British capitulation.

                    That said, dictatorships have a long history of keeping loyal troops close to home to ensure they stay in power. I imagine that could have been done with the troops facing off against Chile. The threat there was real. Argentina came within days or even hours of launching an invasion of Chile a few years earlier and Pinochet was not the forgiving type.

                    The whole thing was stupid squared, especially as a positive outcome was certainly achievable with the resources at hand.
                    Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

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                    • #85
                      If the Argentine's had both 209 U-Boats in tip top shape with elite mercenary German crews captained by experienced submariners who acted like Steven Segal and Chuck Norris the RN wouldn't exist.

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                      • #86
                        So, the available few Su 24's would have to lug lots of drop tanks just to make the round trip, and they'd be limited to non-afterburner flight regimes.
                        350 nm w/o tanks
                        and 700 nm with 2 tanks and 3 belly stations for weapons

                        The Argies did have the Martin Pescador missile could that be used against warships ?

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Herman Hum View Post
                          Any threat increase would have been minimal, at best. Just because they take possession of the equipment does not mean they also immediately magically acquire the requisite skills. Just because they fired Exocets does not mean they know all there is to know about AS-14 and AS-12. I do not think that they had any LGB in their inventory at the time. So, years are needed to gain sufficient proficiency with systems to be effective.
                          I understand but the Argies had only used "dumb" bombs mostly, and to great effect , I was thinking with marginally better munitions and slightly better aircraft (like su-24) they might have been a bit more successful and less vulnerable.
                          I dont mean to suggest that the Fencer would have been the decisive weapon but concentrated attacks against destroyers would have been difficult to counter given there was no AEGIS like system in those ships.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by OttoHarkaman View Post
                            If the Argentine's had both 209 U-Boats in tip top shape with elite mercenary German crews captained by experienced submariners who acted like Steven Segal and Chuck Norris the RN wouldn't exist.

                            Did the diesel electric boats have the endurance to keep evade the RN ASW helicopters and ships ?
                            were they also not much slower than the SSN fielded by RN?

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by johns624 View Post
                              The problem wasn't with the Argentinian Air Force. They fought well. It was the ground forces that were beaten by the British. When you have arguably the best adhoc light infantry division ever put together (2 Para, 3 RM, 1 Gurkha and 2 Guards battalions) up against conscripts, they are going to win.
                              PS-I know it was actually 2 Brigades, but 8 infantry battalions is very close to a division.
                              I have read some of these units were training in norway when the crisis started so they had some recent experience in cold mountainous conditions

                              DID they have any artillery regiments attached as well ?

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by nastle View Post
                                I understand but the Argies had only used "dumb" bombs mostly, and to great effect , I was thinking with marginally better munitions and slightly better aircraft (like su-24) they might have been a bit more successful and less vulnerable.
                                I think that the Argentines were able to deliver sufficient bombs on target but, due to fusing problems, many failed to explode or passed through their targets. Fixing the fuse problems in their existing ordnance would likely have resulted in far better results than acquiring new systems.
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