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What if...there was no Israel!

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  • #16
    No Israel = same o, same o in the Middle East. Give one Arab a gun you get a massacre. Give two Arabs guns you get a war.

    Now, if Israel was allowed to just crush their neighbors completely and take their land, etc., there'd be more peace.
    If Britain, France, etc., retained colonial control there'd be more peace.
    You seem to have a very high opinion of arabs if one arab with a gun can result in a massacre then the arab Israeli wars would have been a one sided affair in favor of arabs lol

    I agree that we should consider this issue as what it is a war over land and between different ethnicities/races.None of this religious BS

    The Russians along with other Europeans should have ACTIVELY supported the resettlement of EUROPEAN jews in Palestine and ANY arab state that opposed it should have been fought.
    This would have led to
    A-Very high percentage of European jews in Israel and much larger territory under Israeli domination this BOTH sides in the cold war could be united when it comes to arab-israeli problem.
    B-ENCOURAGE the cooperation of other religious minorities in states surrounding Israel like Shiites druze alawities
    C-Keep the states of the predomiant sects sunnis weak and constantly squabbling with each other.
    D- Should have treated the oil rich Saudis and sheikhdoms same way as we treat resources rich Congo/other Africa.Keep their people poor, kill the nationalistic leaders and prop up kings that we like.If only the damn soviets had cooperated.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Major Sennef View Post
      Posing the question is a bit answering it.

      Before the state of Israel was established the Middle East was not particularly known for troubles.
      You might want to review the 1920-1930s, and the Axis agitations during WWII.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Stratego View Post
        Is it that simple put?
        Israel had and has alot of influence...but is it not because Israel is regarded as the last western colonial state...a foothold of the West in the middle-east?



        Kind regards,
        Stratego
        Colony of whom?
        UK had the mandate for Palestine and was actively constraining Jewish/Zionist immigration.
        Don't recall any nation giving significant active and open support to the Zionist movement between 1918 and 1948.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Stratego View Post
          Would the Middle East have been more calm the past 50 years?

          In other words: how much influence does and did Israel have for the past 50 years in the Middle East?

          Which Middle-Eastern state/country would have been the most influential?

          In other words: which Middle-Eastern country had everything to become the most powerful and influential in the Middle-East between the 1950's and 2000

          I'm curious to hear your opinions
          (obviously these questions are related to something I am currently researching)



          Kind regards,
          Stratego
          The challenge of Israel is that it violates the Islamic dogma of Dar al-Islam where any land/region once under Muslim domination and Sharia is considered Islamic land for all time. Israel could have been Buddhists or Hindu, or Atheist and still be a subject of 'outrage' and 'contention' to Muslims/Arabs/et.al.

          As it was, the "Israel" defined by the UN solution would have been much smaller and more likely to fail had the 'Arab" neighbors not been hostile, violated the UN Mandate, and attacked the Israeli nation in 1948. That it survived and continues to exist could be regarded as a bit miraculous, especially since it had no "allies" or meaningful support of other Nations in 1948. Neutral dis-interest by the rest of the world best describes Israel's status in 1948, except for those making war against it.

          Comment


          • #20
            History of Israel

            History of Israel

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel
            Select Excerpts;
            ...
            Zionism emerged in the late-19th century. Following the British conquest of Syria, the Balfour Declaration in World War I and the formation of the Mandate of Palestine, Aliyah (Jewish immigration to the Land of Israel) increased and gave rise to Arab–Jewish tensions, and a collision of the Arab and Jewish nationalist movements. Israeli independence in 1948 was marked by massive migration of Jews from both Europe and the Muslim countries to Israel, and of Arabs from Israel, followed by the extensive Arab–Israeli conflict.[2] About 42% of the world's Jews live in Israel today, the largest Jewish community in the world.[3]

            Since about 1970, the United States has become the principal ally of Israel. ...
            ...
            During the 19th century, Jews in Western Europe were increasingly granted citizenship and equality before the law; however, in Eastern Europe, they faced growing persecution and legal restrictions, including widespread pogroms. Half the world's Jews lived in the Russian Empire, where they were regarded as a separate national group and restricted to living in the Pale of Settlement. National groups in the Empire, such as the Poles, Lithuanians and Ukrainians were agitating for independence and regarded as aliens the Jews, who were usually the only non-Christian minority and spoke a distinct language (Yiddish). An independent Jewish national movement first began to emerge in the Russian Empire and the millions of Jews who were fleeing the country (mostly to the USA) carried the seeds of this nationalism wherever they went.

            In 1870, an agricultural school, the Mikveh Israel, was founded near Jaffa by the Alliance Israelite Universelle, a French Jewish association. In 1878, "Russian" Jewish emigrants established the village of Petah Tikva, followed by Rishon LeZion in 1882. "Russian" Jews established the Bilu and Hovevei Zion ("Love of Zion") movements to assist settlers and these created additional communities that, unlike the traditional Ashkenazi-Jewish communities, sought to be self-reliant rather than dependent on donations from abroad. Existing Ashkenazi-Jewish communities were concentrated in the Four Holy Cities, extremely poor and lived on donations from Europe. The new migrants avoided these communities and tended to create small agricultural settlements. In Jaffa a vibrant commercial community developed in which Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews inter-mingled. Many early migrants left due to difficulty finding work and the early settlements often remained dependent on foreign donations. Despite the difficulties, more settlements arose and the community continued to grow.

            The new migration was accompanied by a revival of the Hebrew language and attracted Jews of all kinds; religious, secular, nationalists and left-wing socialists. Socialists aimed to reclaim the land by becoming peasants or workers and forming collectives. In Zionist history, the different waves of Jewish settlement are known as "aliyah". During the First Aliyah, between 1882 and 1903, approximately 35,000 Jews moved to what is now Israel. The first wave coincided with a wave of Jewish migration and Messianism among Yemenite Jews and Bukharan Jews. By 1890, Jews were a majority in Jerusalem, although the country as a whole was populated mainly by Muslim (settled and nomad Bedouins) and Christian Arabs.

            In 1896 Theodor Herzl published Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State), in which he asserted that the solution to growing antisemitism in Europe (the so-called "Jewish Question") was to establish a Jewish state. In 1897, the Zionist Organisation was founded and the First Zionist Congress proclaimed its aim "to establish a home for the Jewish people in Palestine secured under public law."[66] However, Zionism was regarded with suspicion by the Ottoman rulers and was unable to make major progress.
            ...
            During World War I, most Jews supported the Germans because they were fighting the Russians who were regarded as the Jews' main enemy.[67] In Britain, the government sought Jewish support for the war effort for a variety of reasons including an erroneous antisemitic perception of "Jewish power" over the Ottoman Empire's Young Turks movement,[68] and a desire to secure American Jewish support for US intervention on Britain's behalf.

            There was already sympathy for the aims of Zionism in the British government, including the Prime Minister Lloyd George.[69] In late 1917, the British Army drove the Turks out of Southern Syria,[70] and the British foreign minister, Lord Balfour, sent a public letter to Lord Rothschild, a leading member of his party and leader of the Jewish community. The letter subsequently became known as the Balfour Declaration of 1917. It stated that the British Government "view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people". The declaration provided the British government with a pretext for claiming and governing the country.[71] New Middle Eastern boundaries were decided by an agreement between British and French bureaucrats. The agreement gave Britain control over what parties would begin to call "Palestine". This appellation would remain uncontroversial until the rise of Anti-Zionism in the 1940s.
            ...
            The British Mandate (in effect, British rule) of Palestine, including the Balfour Declaration, was confirmed by the League of Nations in 1922 and came into effect in 1923. The boundaries of Palestine initially included modern Jordan, which was removed from the territory by Churchill a few years later. Britain signed a treaty with the United States (which did not join the League of Nations) in which the United States endorsed the terms of the Mandate.

            Between 1919 and 1923, another 40,000 Jews arrived in Palestine, mainly escaping the post-revolutionary chaos of Russia (Third Aliyah), as over 100,000 Jews were massacred in this period in Ukraine and Russia.[72] Many of these immigrants became known as "pioneers" (halutzim), experienced or trained in agriculture and capable of establishing self-sustaining economies. The Jezreel Valley and the Hefer Plain marshes were drained and converted to agricultural use. Land was bought by the Jewish National Fund, a Zionist charity that collected money abroad for that purpose. A mainly socialist underground Jewish militia, Haganah ("Defense"), was established to defend outlying Jewish settlements.

            The French victory over the Arab Kingdom of Syria and the Balfour Declaration led to the emergence of Palestinian Nationalism and Arab rioting in 1920 and 1921. In response, the British authorities imposed immigration quotas for Jews. Exceptions were made for Jews with over 1,000 pounds in cash (roughly 100,000 pounds at year 2000 rates) or Jewish professionals with over 500 pounds. The Jewish Agency issued the British entry permits and distributed funds donated by Jews abroad.[73] Between 1924 and 1929, 82,000 more Jews arrived (Fourth Aliyah), fleeing antisemitism in Poland and Hungary, and because the United States Immigration Act of 1924 now kept Jews out. The new arrivals included many middle-class families who moved into towns and established small businesses and workshops—although lack of economic opportunities meant that approximately a quarter later left. The first electricity generator was built in Tel Aviv in 1923 under the guidance of Pinhas Rutenberg, a former Commissar of St Petersburg in Russia's pre-Bolshevik Kerensky Government. In 1925 the Jewish Agency established the Hebrew University in Jerusalem and the Technion (technological university) in Haifa.

            From 1928, the democratically elected Va'ad Leumi (Jewish National Council or JNC) became the main institution of the Palestine Jewish community ("Yishuv") and included non-Zionist Jews. As the Yishuv grew, the JNC adopted more government-type functions, such as education, health care and security. With British permission, the Va'ad raised its own taxes[74] and ran independent services for the Jewish population.[75] From 1929 its leadership was elected by Jews from 26 countries.

            In 1929 tensions grew over the Kotel (Wailing Wall), a narrow alleyway where Jews were banned from using chairs or any furniture (many of the worshipers were elderly). The Mufti claimed it was Muslim property and that the Jews were seeking control of the Temple Mount. This (and general animosity) led to the August 1929 Palestine riots. The main victims were the ancient Jewish community at Hebron, which came to an end. The riots led to right-wing Zionists establishing their own militia in 1931, the Irgun Tzvai Leumi (National Military Organization, known in Hebrew by its acronym "Etzel").
            ...
            Between 1929 and 1938, 250,000 Jews arrived in Palestine (Fifth Aliyah). 174,000 arrived between 1933 and 1936, after which the British increasingly restricted immigration. The influx contributed to the 1933 Palestine riots. Migration was mostly from Europe and included professionals, doctors, lawyers and professors from Germany. As a consequence German architects of the Bauhaus school made Tel-Aviv the world's only city with purely Bauhaus neighborhoods and Palestine had the highest per-capita percentage of doctors in the world.
            ...
            Jewish immigration and Nazi propaganda contributed to the large-scale 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine, a largely nationalist uprising directed at ending British rule. The head of the Jewish Agency, Ben-Gurion, responded to the Arab Revolt with a policy of "Havlagah"—self-restraint and a refusal to be provoked by Arab attacks in order to prevent polarization. The Etzel group broke off from the Haganah in opposition to this policy.

            The British responded to the revolt with the Peel Commission (1936–37), a public inquiry that recommended that an exclusively Jewish territory be created in the Galilee and western coast (including the population transfer of 225,000 Arabs); the rest becoming an exclusively Arab area. The two main Jewish leaders, Chaim Weizmann and David Ben-Gurion, had convinced the Zionist Congress to approve equivocally the Peel recommendations as a basis for more negotiation.[76][77][78] The plan was rejected outright by the Palestinian Arab leadership and they renewed the revolt, which caused the British to appease the Arabs, and to abandon the plan as unworkable.[79][80]

            Testifying before the Peel Commission, Weizmann said "There are in Europe 6,000,000 people ... for whom the world is divided into places where they cannot live and places where they cannot enter." In 1938, the US called an international conference to address the question of the vast numbers of Jews trying to escape Europe. Britain made its attendance contingent on Palestine being kept out of the discussion. No Jewish representatives were invited. The Nazis proposed their own solution: that the Jews of Europe be shipped to Madagascar (the Madagascar Plan).
            ...
            During the 2nd World War, the Jewish Agency worked to establish a Jewish army that would fight alongside the British forces. Churchill supported the plan but British Military and government opposition led to its rejection. The British demanded that the number of Jewish recruits match the number of Palestinian Arab recruits,[81] but few Arabs would fight for Britain, and the Palestinian leader, the Mufti of Jerusalem, joined the Nazis in Europe.

            In May 1941, the Palmach was established to defend the Yishuv against the planned Axis invasion through North Africa. The British refusal to provide arms to the Jews, even when Rommel's forces were advancing through Egypt in June 1942 (intent on occupying Palestine) and the 1939 White Paper, led to the emergence of a Zionist leadership in Palestine that believed conflict with Britain was inevitable.[82] Despite this, the Jewish Agency called on Palestine's Jewish youth to volunteer for the British Army (both men and women). 30,000 Palestinian Jews[83] and 6,000 Palestinian Arabs[84][85] enlisted in the British armed forces during the war. In June 1944 the British agreed to create a Jewish Brigade that would fight in Italy.

            Approximately 1.5 million Jews around the world served in every branch of the allied armies, mainly in the Soviet and U.S. armies. 200,000 Jews died serving in the Soviet army alone.[86] Many of these war veterans later volunteered to fight for Israel or were active in its support.
            ...
            The British Empire was severely weakened by the war. In the Middle East, the war had made Britain conscious of its dependence on Arab oil. British firms controlled Iraqi oil and Britain ruled Kuwait, Bahrain and the Emirates. Shortly after VE Day, the Labour Party won the general election in Britain. Although Labour Party conferences had for years called for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine, the Labour government now decided to maintain the 1939 White Paper policies.[93]

            Illegal migration (Aliyah Bet) became the main form of Jewish entry into Palestine. Across Europe Bricha ("flight"), an organization of former partisans and ghetto fighters, smuggled Holocaust survivors from Eastern Europe to Mediterranean ports, where small boats tried to breach the British blockade of Palestine. Meanwhile, Jews from Arab countries began moving into Palestine overland. Despite British efforts to curb immigration, during the 14 years of the Aliyah Bet, over 110,000 Jews entered Palestine. By the end of World War II, the Jewish population of Palestine had increased to 33% of the total population.[94]

            In an effort to win independence, Zionists now waged a guerrilla war against the British. The main underground Jewish militia, the Haganah, formed an alliance called the Jewish Resistance Movement with the Etzel and Stern Gang to fight the British. In June 1946, following instances of Jewish sabotage, the British launched Operation Agatha, arresting 2700 Jews, including the leadership of the Jewish Agency, whose headquarters were raided. Those arrested were held without trial.
            ...
            United Nations Partition Plan

            Main articles: United Nations Special Committee on Palestine and United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine



            United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine, 1947


            On 2 April 1947, the United Kingdom requested that the question of Palestine be handled by the General Assembly.[96] The General Assembly created a committee, United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP), to report on "the question of Palestine".[97] In July 1947 the UNSCOP visited Palestine and met with Jewish and Zionist delegations. The Arab Higher Committee boycotted the meetings. During the visit the British Foreign Secretary Ernest Bevin ordered an illegal immigrant ship, the Exodus 1947, to be sent back to Europe. The migrants on the ship were forcibly removed by British troops at Hamburg.

            The principal non-Zionist Orthodox Jewish (or Haredi) party, Agudat Israel, recommended to UNSCOP that a Jewish state be set up after reaching a religious status quo agreement with Ben-Gurion regarding the future Jewish state. The agreement would grant exemption to a quota of yeshiva (religious seminary) students and to all orthodox women from military service, would make the Sabbath the national weekend, promised Kosher food in government institutions and would allow them to maintain a separate education system.[98]

            The majority report of UNSCOP proposed[99] "an independent Arab State, an independent Jewish State, and the City of Jerusalem" ..., the last to be under "an International Trusteeship System".[100] On 29 November 1947, in Resolution 181 (II), the General Assembly adopted the majority report of UNSCOP, but with slight modifications.[101] The Plan also called for the British to allow "substantial" Jewish migration by 1 February 1948.[102]
            Neither Britain nor the UN Security Council took any action to implement the resolution and Britain continued detaining Jews attempting to enter Palestine. Concerned that partition would severely damage Anglo-Arab relations, Britain denied UN representatives access to Palestine during the period between the adoption of Resolution 181 (II) and the termination of the British Mandate.[103] The British withdrawal was finally completed in May 1948. However, Britain continued to hold Jews of "fighting age" and their families on Cyprus until March 1949.[104]
            ....
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

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            • #21
              Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
              You might want to review the 1920-1930s, and the Axis agitations during WWII.
              What made the headlines in the 1920s-1930s were Communist Russia; ethic atrocities in Asia Minor; the Naval Agreements, the Great Depression; the Rise of Germany, the Japanese expansion in Manchuria and China, Italian agression in Ethiopia; the Spanish Civil War, the impotence of the League of Nations.

              Giving that same weight to the developments in what was then known as Palestine seems to be hindsight.
              BoRG

              You may not be interested in War, but War is interested in You - Leon Trotski, June 1919.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Major Sennef View Post
                What made the headlines in the 1920s-1930s were Communist Russia; ethic atrocities in Asia Minor; the Naval Agreements, the Great Depression; the Rise of Germany, the Japanese expansion in Manchuria and China, Italian agression in Ethiopia; the Spanish Civil War, the impotence of the League of Nations.

                Giving that same weight to the developments in what was then known as Palestine seems to be hindsight.
                This thread is about Israel and the point I was making (see my above post on the history of Israel~Zionism) was about that area. Granted that events there may not have been major headlines in the 1920-30's, but there were events in that region which factor into the history of the eventual state of Israel. Also, the region was more often referred to as Trans-Jordan with "Palestine" an area within same, and the eventual "two-state" solution prior to 1948 was to include an "East-bank" portion which is now part of the nation of Jordan (hint being that perhaps this political boundary should be adjusted in any future solution that includes creation of a "Palestinian State").

                I think you read something more in my post you responded to than I was intending/implying.

                NAZI Germany tried to exploit local dis-satisfaction with UK and French administration of the former Ottoman territories and UK support of the Zionist movement by encouraging rebellions in the M.E. early on in WWII and the campaigns of the region.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Let's hypothesise that Israel was split between Egypt, Jordan and Syria. I'm not sure history plays out very differently in the ME. There is maybe an increased risk of an Egyptian - Syrian conflict.

                  Instead of Palestinians agitating for return of land, there is likely a vocal Jewish diasporia movement in the US and elsewhere that demands the return of land and the creation of a Jewish nation.

                  Islam finds other reasons to hate the west and radical Islam is still with us today.
                  Ne Obliviscaris, Sans Peur

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