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What if...there was no Israel!

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  • What if...there was no Israel!

    Would the Middle East have been more calm the past 50 years?

    In other words: how much influence does and did Israel have for the past 50 years in the Middle East?

    Which Middle-Eastern state/country would have been the most influential?

    In other words: which Middle-Eastern country had everything to become the most powerful and influential in the Middle-East between the 1950's and 2000

    I'm curious to hear your opinions
    (obviously these questions are related to something I am currently researching)



    Kind regards,
    Stratego
    Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily.- Napoleon

    It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation.- Herman Melville

    Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

    BORG

  • #2
    I think that Iran would have been the strongest, which it probably was in the Shah days.
    A better question would be "what if the ME didn't have oil?". In that case, it would be a big yawn. They'd still be killing each other but nobody would care as much and they wouldn't have anywhere near the money to export terrorism. It would be like sub-Saharan Africa "it's terrible what they're doing to each other, but who really cares?".

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Stratego View Post
      Would the Middle East have been more calm the past 50 years?

      In other words: how much influence does and did Israel have for the past 50 years in the Middle East?
      Posing the question is a bit answering it.

      Before the state of Israel was established the Middle East was not particularly known for troubles.
      BoRG

      You may not be interested in War, but War is interested in You - Leon Trotski, June 1919.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Major Sennef View Post
        Posing the question is a bit answering it.

        Before the state of Israel was established the Middle East was not particularly known for troubles.
        The fact that the whole place was firmly under Ottoman control for the preceding 500+ years probably had more to do with it. In fact the places that weren't kept in line by the Turks, like North Africa were every bit as much trouble as they are today. What with all the piracy and slavery.
        "Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." - Frederick the Great

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Major Sennef View Post
          Posing the question is a bit answering it.

          Before the state of Israel was established the Middle East was not particularly known for troubles.
          Is it that simple put?
          Israel had and has alot of influence...but is it not because Israel is regarded as the last western colonial state...a foothold of the West in the middle-east?



          Kind regards,
          Stratego
          Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily.- Napoleon

          It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation.- Herman Melville

          Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

          BORG

          Comment


          • #6
            No Israel = same o, same o in the Middle East. Give one Arab a gun you get a massacre. Give two Arabs guns you get a war.

            Now, if Israel was allowed to just crush their neighbors completely and take their land, etc., there'd be more peace.
            If Britain, France, etc., retained colonial control there'd be more peace.

            Yes, even during the colonial period the Arabs were all too willing to commit terrorism and the British and company kept the peace at the end of a bayonet.

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            • #7
              Most Brits and pre-1960s Whites westerners believed in the NT, & the OT, on which he NT is based, foretold in numerous places that the Jews would ultimately be ingathered from all 4 corners of the Earth to the Land of Israel. THe metahistorical view of history that ignores the End Time roles of Israel, Edom, Ishmael, Gog, Magog, Russia, Germay, Egypt, Libya, Persia, Black Africa, the Ten Lost Tribes etc etc cannot be removed from the equation: "If the Bible has nothing to do with it, then what are we doing here?!" (Golda Meir - "The Jew is the Golden Thread who runs through history!" (Sir James Jeans) etc etc

              Comment


              • #8
                Not for the last 35 years. Starting in 1979 we have The Iranian revolution. That was followed by the Soviet-Afghan war, the Iran-Iraq war, the invasion of Kuwait, the Gulf war, the US-Afghan war, the US-Iraq war, the arab "spring", the Nato-Libyan war, the Houthi insurgency, and of course the strange bedfellows-Isis war. None of which have anything really to do with Israel.

                That's off the top of my head. I'm sure I forgot a few conflicts.

                The only significant source of tension traced to Israel is the on again, off again intifada, but this tension is now localized. Arguably Lebanon wasn't helped by the 1982 Israeli invasion, but given the demographics it was going for a fall anyway.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                  Yes, even during the colonial period the Arabs were all too willing to commit terrorism and the British and company kept the peace at the end of a bayonet.

                  The Jews were pretty good at terrorism,also. Ever heard of the King David hotel bombing?
                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Stratego View Post
                    Would the Middle East have been more calm the past 50 years?

                    In other words: how much influence does and did Israel have for the past 50 years in the Middle East?

                    Which Middle-Eastern state/country would have been the most influential?

                    In other words: which Middle-Eastern country had everything to become the most powerful and influential in the Middle-East between the 1950's and 2000

                    I'm curious to hear your opinions
                    (obviously these questions are related to something I am currently researching)



                    Kind regards,
                    Stratego
                    You might consider how to "undo" the Zionist movement of the late 1800's
                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism along with Western nations becoming more tolerant of the Jewish presence in their countries, especially "The Holocaust" not occurring, in other words, how to remove the incentive the Jews had to return to their homeland.

                    Or is the assumption here that the Holocaust and other pogroms were more effective in removing the "Jewish Problem"?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by johns624 View Post
                      The Jews were pretty good at terrorism,also. Ever heard of the King David hotel bombing?
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing
                      I agree. But, they didn't go on doing it for decades and never getting anywhere. Like the American Revolution and other similar ones theirs lead to something better. The Palestinians and their ilk have been running in place for the better part of a century without any progress towards becoming a useful state.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                        I agree. But, they didn't go on doing it for decades and never getting anywhere. Like the American Revolution and other similar ones theirs lead to something better. The Palestinians and their ilk have been running in place for the better part of a century without any progress towards becoming a useful state.
                        How much subsidy has the US been giving Israel? How much subsidy has the rest of greater Palestine received in the same period? What help did those states sheltering the Palestinian refugees receive? How much of a drain on their resources is it?

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
                          How much subsidy has the US been giving Israel? How much subsidy has the rest of greater Palestine received in the same period? What help did those states sheltering the Palestinian refugees receive? How much of a drain on their resources is it?
                          Recall that in the wake of the 1948 war nearly as many Jews were displaced from "Arab" nations, as "Palestinians" were displaced by Israel winning that war. Note also that the objective of the "Arab" nations attacking Israel was to eliminate it!

                          USA policy of the time was a strict neutrality towards Israel and would remain such until issues of the Cold War and Soviet re-armament of Arab nations post the 1956 War caused a shift in USA policy towards Israel (Up to the time of the 1956 War, Israel had armed largely thru non-USA sources, mostly French). Along with Iran and Saudi Arabia, Israel was one of few Western allies in the region during the mid 1960's onward.

                          The Palestinian "condition" was the result of the "Arab" aggression in 1948 and since that time, hence it is an "Arab"/Muslim problem. Still is, IMO.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
                            How much subsidy has the US been giving Israel? How much subsidy has the rest of greater Palestine received in the same period? What help did those states sheltering the Palestinian refugees receive? How much of a drain on their resources is it?
                            Israel gets about $2 billion in foreign aid a year while the Palestinian territories get about a billion. Yet, Israel is a stable state with a reasonably democratic government. The Palestinian territories are ruled by what are essentially organized gangs who promote violence and corruption.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                              I agree. But, they didn't go on doing it for decades and never getting anywhere. Like the American Revolution and other similar ones theirs lead to something better. The Palestinians and their ilk have been running in place for the better part of a century without any progress towards becoming a useful state.
                              That's because Israelis leaders were much better than arabs, the arab leaders have completely misled their nations and ruined their potential for selfish reasons.But I still don't see how you can justify the terrorism of extremist jewish groups ? they were killing british boys without any justification
                              Last edited by nastle; 07 Dec 15, 20:47.

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