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  • What if Hitler allows Tunisia to be evacuated al

    What if Hitler allows Tunisia to be evacuated along with its 200,000+ German soldiers sometime between December 1942 and April 1943?

  • #2
    He wouldn't have been Hitler. 6th army would have withdrawn as well ..

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    • #3
      Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
      He wouldn't have been Hitler. 6th army would have withdrawn as well ..
      We have a winner, ladies and gentlemen

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      • #4
        Have been pondering this question,
        but unable to come up with a better answer than Copenhagen's.
        BoRG

        You may not be interested in War, but War is interested in You - Leon Trotski, June 1919.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Cmyers1980 View Post
          What if Hitler allows Tunisia to be evacuated along with its 200,000+ German soldiers sometime between December 1942 and April 1943?
          Hi

          Leaving aside Cope's observation, what do you thinK the consequences of such an action would have been?

          Regards

          Andy H
          "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

          "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

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          • #6
            The Allies get to invade Sicily, then the Italian mainland and knock Italy out of the war several months earlier then the original time line.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Gooner View Post
              The Allies get to invade Sicily, then the Italian mainland and knock Italy out of the war several months earlier then the original time line.
              In the original, these 200,000 plus German troops in Tunesia got captured and were taken out of the war.

              Uncaptured they remain available to bolster defence in Sicily or mainland Italy (or Russia), IMO prolonging the war.
              BoRG

              You may not be interested in War, but War is interested in You - Leon Trotski, June 1919.

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              • #8
                Not that simple.

                What factored into the OKW/Hitler decision was the ability to tie up many armies (truth) with the 6.AOK while the south of the eastern front fell apart with its giant gaping holes. From Dec 42-March 43 the southern fronts were fighting for their survival.

                Second, 6.AOK was already de-mobilized/marooned at Stalingrad before the decision took place. The logistical decisions were already made before Uranus took place.

                It had a lot less to do with Hitler's "madness" than people think.

                Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
                He wouldn't have been Hitler. 6th army would have withdrawn as well ..
                The OP should be approached with consideration with the complementary issues.
                Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                Battle of Kalinin October 1941

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Major Sennef View Post
                  In the original, these 200,000 plus German troops in Tunesia got captured and were taken out of the war.

                  Uncaptured they remain available to bolster defence in Sicily or mainland Italy (or Russia), IMO prolonging the war.
                  There were NO 200000 German troops in Tunesia in december 1942: there were in april 1943 130000 Germans in Tunesia,of which 25000 returned,2400 were not clarified,the rest was KIA/POW.

                  It is very unlikely that the Germans lost 70000 men between december and april .

                  Source : WW2 Stats : Abwicklungsstab Tunis .

                  Besides : there is NO proof that it was possible to evacuate the German forces in december 1942.

                  The 200000 men in Tunesia is the same myth as the 330000 men encircled at Stalingrad .

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
                    He wouldn't have been Hitler. 6th army would have withdrawn as well ..
                    There is NO proof that 6 Army could be withdrawn,every thing indicates the opposite .

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cmyers1980 View Post
                      What if Hitler allows Tunisia to be evacuated along with its 200,000+ German soldiers sometime between December 1942 and April 1943?
                      Better OP : what if the Allies allow the Germans to evacuate Tunis ?

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                      • #12
                        If the Germans don't reinforce Tunisia, then that on it's own puts about 100,000 more men back in Europe. Then it is a matter of withdrawing those already there. That would be about 3 divisions for the Germans (given their actual strength) with the remainder being Italian.
                        If the Germans don't give a hoot in hell about the Italians withdrawing and just pull their own troops, it is doable for them.

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                        • #13
                          Axis POWs

                          Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                          There were NO 200000 German troops in Tunesia in december 1942: there were in april 1943 130000 Germans in Tunesia,of which 25000 returned,2400 were not clarified,the rest was KIA/POW.

                          It is very unlikely that the Germans lost 70000 men between december and april .

                          Source : WW2 Stats : Abwicklungsstab Tunis .
                          Good fact check.
                          I can imagine Abwicklungsstab Tunis would only consider German troops.
                          Possibly the count of German and Italian troops put together amounts to over 200,000 POWs.
                          Last edited by Colonel Sennef; 21 Sep 15, 15:29. Reason: typo
                          BoRG

                          You may not be interested in War, but War is interested in You - Leon Trotski, June 1919.

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                          • #14
                            At least 100000 Italians became POW in may 1943,which would mean a minimum number of Axis POWs of 200000

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                            • #15
                              From the British Official History

                              "No satisfactory calculation of the casualties sustained by the Axis forces in the last phases of the campaign in Africa has been found in Axis records. The closest Allied record is that of unwounded prisoners actually held on 25th May. This gives:
                              German: 101,784
                              Italian: 89,442
                              Nationality unspecified: 47,017
                              or a grand total of 238,243. The American Official History gives an estimated total of 275,000, and an 18th Army Group calculation of prisoners taken from 20th March gives German: 157,000; Italian: 86,700, or a grand total of 244,500.(1)

                              (1) Rommel's estimate was 130,000 Germans; von Arnim's was Germans 100,000, Italians 200,000.
                              On 3rd May the Staff Officer responsible for compiling the rations strength of Army Group Africa stated that this could not be given in detail because the relevant documents had been destroyed."

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