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  • #31
    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
    The problem is the gold was on the wrong coast (Pacific) or in the interior (Mexico). The Gold fields in Brazil are in the Amazon basin and Minas Gerais.

    We have evidence that Europeans settled in North America before the Asians got here. It was by travel along the ice sheets. Arctic Foxes do it all the time.

    Pruitt
    There is zero evidence that any Europeans settled the Americas prior to Amer-Indians from Asia.
    Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by AdrianE View Post
      As others have mentioned that pretty much implies no humans in North or South America. Which in turn implies no Siberia-Alaska land bridge.

      It also means that the predators of such beasts survive which might make colonization of the Americas more challenging and in the case of the Spanish much less profitable as there would be no indigenous cultures to exploit.

      The early expeditions would return with tales of a land full of giant monsters.
      Had there been no migration across Beringia into the Americas, early Norse settlements in Newfoundland might have succeeded.
      Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
        They did some DNA tests on what they thought were isolated Foxes. It turns out they were descendents from at least three lines of Foxes from Europe and North America! Polar Bears also can and do migrate great distances over the ice. Polar vessels can see them miles offshore heading wherever they want to go.

        Those Science Daily and Scientific American articles can come in handy!

        Pruitt
        Vulpes vulpes is the only species of fox found in the western and eastern hemispheres.*

        It is highly probable that the foxes got here the same way the Amer-Indians did...
        THE ORIGIN OF RECENTLY ESTABLISHED RED FOX POPULATIONS IN THE UNITED STATES: TRANSLOCATIONS OR NATURAL RANGE EXPANSIONS?

        STATHAM, M. J., B. N. SACKS, K. B. AUBRY, J. D. PERRINE, AND S. M. WISELY

        Red foxes (Vulpes vulpes) are native to boreal and western montane portions of North America but their origins are unknown in many lowland areas of the United States. Red foxes were historically absent from much of the East Coast at the time of European settlement and did not become common until the mid-1800s. Some early naturalists described an apparent southward expansion of native foxes that coincided with anthropogenic habitat changes in the region. Alternatively, red foxes introduced from Europe during Colonial times may have become established in the east and subsequently expanded their range westward. The red fox also was absent historically from most lowland areas of the western United States. Extant populations of red foxes in those areas are considered to have arisen from intentional introductions from the east (and by extension are putatively European), escapes or releases from fur farms, or range expansions by native populations.

        [...]

        http://www.mammalsociety.org/article...or-natural-ran

        Boreal (AKA Taiga) climate...


        The western montane consists of the Rocky, Sierra Nevada and Cascade mountain range habits.

        The Boreal regions would have migrated south during glacial stages and north during interglacial stages. Beringia remained largely ice free during much of the Pleistocene During during glacial stages, much of Beringia was above sea level. The foxes migrated with their habitat until humans created new habitats for them.

        There is an infinitesimally small probability that the foxes left their boreal habitat in Europe, crossed the European continental ice sheet, more than 1,000 miles of sea ice and then the Laurentide continental ice sheet in order to reach the "boreal and western montane portions of North America."
        Last edited by The Doctor; 02 Apr 15, 11:20. Reason: *The Arctic fox is also found in both eastern and western hemispheres.
        Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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        • #34
          Hey Doc, what's your opinion on the hypothesis of humans entering North America from Europe ~13,500-15,000 years ago? I was in a debate recently about this, and I say it's nonsense.

          With your knowledge on this subject you'd probably be more informed than I.
          Divine Mercy Sunday: 4/21/2020 (https://www.thedivinemercy.org/message) The Miracle of Lanciano: Jesus' Real Presence (https://web.archive.org/web/20060831...fcontents.html)

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          • #35
            Originally posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
            Hey Doc, what's your opinion on the hypothesis of humans entering North America from Europe ~13,500-15,000 years ago? I was in a debate recently about this, and I say it's nonsense.

            With your knowledge on this subject you'd probably be more informed than I.
            The "Solutrean hypothesis" is a bigger myth than AGW...
            The Late Pleistocene Dispersal of Modern Humans in the Americas

            Ted Goebel, Michael R. Waters, Dennis H. O’Rourke

            When did modern humans colonize the Americas? From where did they come and what routes did they take? These questions have gripped scientists for decades, but until recently answers have proven difficult to find. New techniques of molecular genetic analysis, and a reinvigorated search for early archaeological sites across the western hemisphere, recently have led to some astounding results. From genetics we now know that a single population of modern humans dispersed from southern Siberia toward the Bering Land Bridge as early as ~30,000 years ago, and further dispersed from Beringia to the Americas after ~16,500 years ago. From archaeology, we know that the first Americans appeared south of the Canadian ice sheets by ~15,000 years ago, 2000 years before the emergence and spread of Clovis. The route taken by the first explorers appears to have been along the recently deglaciated north Pacific coastline.



            [...]

            The Genetic Evidence
            Old World Origins

            All human skeletal remains from the Americas are anatomically modern [I]Homo sapiens; thus the peopling of the New World is best understood in the context of the evolution and dispersal of modern humans in the Old World. Modern human dispersal from Africa across Eurasia began by c. 50 ka and culminated with colonization of the Americas. Evidence from nuclear gene markers, mitochondrial (mt)DNA, and Y chromosomes clearly indicates that all Native Americans came from Asia. Molecular genetic diversity among modern Native Americans fits within five mtDNA (A, B, C, D, X) and two Y-chromosome (C and Q) founding haplogroups, and all of these are found among indigenous populations of southern Siberia, from the Altai to Amur regions. Of these haplogroups, only X is known from both central Asia and Europe; however, X is a large, diverse haplogroup with many lineages, and the lineage found in Amerindian populations is distinct from those in Eurasia. Ancient DNA from early American skeletal remains and human coprolites provides an important link between the present and the past; these, too, have only yielded Native American haplogroups of Asian origin. Based on the modern and ancient DNA records, then, Asia was the homeland of the first Americans, not Europe, negating the recently proposed "Solutrean hypothesis," that Clovis people were derived from an Upper Paleolithic population on the Iberian Peninsula.

            Using contemporary mtDNA and Y-chromosome variation as a "genetic clock", geneticists calculate that modern humans dispersed into greater central Asia by 40 ka, setting the stage for the colonization of the Americas. Corroborating human skeletal evidence of this event, however, is still scarce. The earliest modern human remains in Siberia are from Mal'ta and date to only 24 ka. Despite this, in eastern Asia modern human fossils have been unequivocally dated to the critical period, 39-36 ka, and in Siberia archaeological evidence suggests that modern humans entered the region by 40 ka, when initial Upper Paleolithic technologies, tool forms, items of personal adornment, and art appeared for the first time. In Europe, archaeologists link the emergence of such behaviors to the spread of modern humans from southwestern Asia.

            [...]

            Number of Migrations

            Physical anthropologists have shown that the craniometrics of the earliest Americans (i.e., "Paleoamericans" like Kennewick, Spirit Cave, Lagoa Santa) are significantly different from those of more recent Native Americans. Working under the assumption that craniometric variation is neutral and therefore phylogenetically significant, they interpret the differences to reflect two successive migrations stemming from two geographically or temporally distinct sources. Accordingly, Paleoamericans arrived in the New World and were later replaced by ancestors of modern Native Americans.

            Current data from molecular genetics do not support this model of Native American replacement of Paleoamericans. All major Native American mtDNA and Y-chromosome haplogroups emerged in the same region of central Asia, and all share similar coalescent dates, indicating that a single ancient gene pool is ancestral to all Native American populations.


            [...]



            LINK

            Haplotype X is found in many Native American populations. It has often been cited as evidence of a Late Pleistocene migration from the Iberian Peninsula to America across the Atlantic (The Solutrean Hypothesis). The Clovis and Solutrean blades share a lot of similarities; but they are not identical. The Solutrean culture (including their blades, spear points, sewing kits & tools) pretty well vanished from the European fossil record ~15 kya. The Clovis blade is not present in the North American fossil record prior to ~13.5 kya.

            The highest Amerindian haplotype X concentration is in the Ojibwa (the Chippewa) who were first encountered by Europeans (French missionaries) near Lake Superior ca. 1640. The Altaians are from Siberia. Their X haplotype is closer to the Amerindian than the European haplotype is. The Altaians have the same five haplotypes “the Ojibwa, the Nuu-Chah-Nulth, the Sioux, and the Yakima, as well as the Na Dene–speaking Navajo” – No other group is such a close match. The Atlaian haplotype plots in an intermediate position between Amerindians and Europeans (The Presence of Mitochondrial Haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia).




            I can’t disprove a Solutrean migration along sea ice from France to the Grand Banks and then into Nova Scotia. The DNA patterns don’t exclude that possibility. Of course I can’t disprove a migration via Egyptian parasails or Atlantean motor yachts either.

            Siberia and Beringia remained largely ice-free throughout the last glacial maximum (LGM). The Bering land bridge was open from well before the LGM up until ~13 kya. The Cordilleran and Laurentide ice sheets separated about 14.5 kya. Siberia, Alaska, Alberta and the Pacific Northwest are littered with archaeological evidence of the pre-Clovis migration. The only pre-Clovis human DNA identified to date (Paisley Caves, Oregon) “belonged to Native Americans in haplogroups A2 and B2, haplogroups common in Siberia and east Asia.”

            While it would not have been impossible for the Solutreans to lay-over on sea ice during the long kayaking trip from France to North America and “an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”… There were no ice-free coastal areas in Greenland, Newfoundland or Labrador 14.5 kya. Apart from some now-submerged islands on the Grand Banks, there were no ice-free coastal areas from Northern Europe to Nova Scotia 14.5 kya. There is no archaeological evidence of Solutrean migration (granted such evidence would most likely be underwater). Nor is there any clear DNA evidence tying the Solutreans to the pre-Clovis or Clovis.
            Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
              The "Solutrean hypothesis" is a bigger myth than AGW...
              I see what you did there...

              Thanks for the info, though!
              Divine Mercy Sunday: 4/21/2020 (https://www.thedivinemercy.org/message) The Miracle of Lanciano: Jesus' Real Presence (https://web.archive.org/web/20060831...fcontents.html)

              Comment


              • #37
                Wrong Fox

                Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                Vulpes vulpes is the only species of fox found in the western and eastern hemispheres.

                It is highly probable that the foxes got here the same way the Amer-Indians did...
                THE ORIGIN OF RECENTLY ESTABLISHED RED FOX POPULATIONS IN THE UNITED STATES: TRANSLOCATIONS OR NATURAL RANGE EXPANSIONS?

                STATHAM, M. J., B. N. SACKS, K. B. AUBRY, J. D. PERRINE, AND S. M. WISELY

                Red foxes (Vulpes vulpes) are native to boreal and western montane portions of North America but their origins are unknown in many lowland areas of the United States. Red foxes were historically absent from much of the East Coast at the time of European settlement and did not become common until the mid-1800s. Some early naturalists described an apparent southward expansion of native foxes that coincided with anthropogenic habitat changes in the region. Alternatively, red foxes introduced from Europe during Colonial times may have become established in the east and subsequently expanded their range westward. The red fox also was absent historically from most lowland areas of the western United States. Extant populations of red foxes in those areas are considered to have arisen from intentional introductions from the east (and by extension are putatively European), escapes or releases from fur farms, or range expansions by native populations.

                [...]

                http://www.mammalsociety.org/article...or-natural-ran

                Boreal (AKA Taiga) climate...


                The western montane consists of the Rocky, Sierra Nevada and Cascade mountain range habits.

                The Boreal regions would have migrated south during glacial stages and north during interglacial stages. Beringia remained largely ice free during much of the Pleistocene During during glacial stages, much of Beringia was above sea level. The foxes migrated with their habitat until humans created new habitats for them.

                There is an infinitesimally small probability that the foxes left their boreal habitat in Europe, crossed the European continental ice sheet, more than 1,000 miles of sea ice and then the Laurentide continental ice sheet in order to reach the "boreal and western montane portions of North America."
                Now try Arctic Fox, Vulpes Lagopus! Maybe I confused you when I started typing Fox when I got tired of typing Arctic Fox. I will try not to misdirect you again Dave.

                Pruitt
                Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                  The "Solutrean hypothesis" is a bigger myth than AGW...
                  I can’t disprove a Solutrean migration along sea ice from France to the Grand Banks and then into Nova Scotia. The DNA patterns don’t exclude that possibility.

                  Siberia and Beringia remained largely ice-free throughout the last glacial maximum (LGM). The Bering land bridge was open from well before the LGM up until ~13 kya. The Cordilleran and Laurentide ice sheets separated about 14.5 kya. Siberia, Alaska, Alberta and the Pacific Northwest are littered with archaeological evidence of the pre-Clovis migration. The only pre-Clovis human DNA identified to date (Paisley Caves, Oregon) “belonged to Native Americans in haplogroups A2 and B2, haplogroups common in Siberia and east Asia.”

                  While it would not have been impossible for the Solutreans to lay-over on sea ice during the long kayaking trip from France to North America and “an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”… There were no ice-free coastal areas in Greenland, Newfoundland or Labrador 14.5 kya. Apart from some now-submerged islands on the Grand Banks, there were no ice-free coastal areas from Northern Europe to Nova Scotia 14.5 kya. There is no archaeological evidence of Solutrean migration (granted such evidence would most likely be underwater). Nor is there any clear DNA evidence tying the Solutreans to the pre-Clovis or Clovis.
                  Dave, you are aware that Y DNA Haplogroups for Europeans also came from the same areas of Western Asia that the Amerinds have been traced back to? That is why you can't really use Y to trace back Amerind Tribes. The problem with using DNA gene markers is we have only a small sample to work with and there may well have been populations with gene markers we have not found yet. These Altaic MTA gene markers are something I will have to study. It is possible they traveled WEST as well as East.

                  While you can be a wizard with maps and charts, there are other maps out there that show the Ice Pack stretching to the South of Iceland and the Ice reaches from North America to Europe.

                  Pruitt
                  Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                  Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                  by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                    Now try Arctic Fox, Vulpes Lagopus! Maybe I confused you when I started typing Fox when I got tired of typing Arctic Fox. I will try not to misdirect you again Dave.

                    Pruitt
                    I assumed you meant red foxes because there is at least some debate about how they got to the Americas.

                    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                    They did some DNA tests on what they thought were isolated Foxes. It turns out they were descendents from at least three lines of Foxes from Europe and North America! Polar Bears also can and do migrate great distances over the ice. Polar vessels can see them miles offshore heading wherever they want to go.

                    Those Science Daily and Scientific American articles can come in handy!

                    Pruitt
                    There's no mystery about Arctic foxes and their habitat...



                    Assuming they first appeared in Europe, the only way they got to North America was through Beringia. Their habitat is tundra.

                    There is some evidence that they are descended from an extinct Tibetan species.

                    The Arctic fox's closest extant relative is the Kit fox of the US Southwest and northern Mexico.

                    However, there is no evidence that they walked across two continental ice sheets and over 1,000 miles of sea ice to get from Europe to the Americas.
                    Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                      Dave, you are aware that Y DNA Haplogroups for Europeans also came from the same areas of Western Asia that the Amerinds have been traced back to? That is why you can't really use Y to trace back Amerind Tribes. The problem with using DNA gene markers is we have only a small sample to work with and there may well have been populations with gene markers we have not found yet. These Altaic MTA gene markers are something I will have to study. It is possible they traveled WEST as well as East.
                      There is simply no evidence to support the Solutrean hypothesis. None, nada, zero-point-zero...



                      Originally posted by Pruitt
                      While you can be a wizard with maps and charts, there are other maps out there that show the Ice Pack stretching to the South of Iceland and the Ice reaches from North America to Europe.

                      Pruitt
                      Sea ice (ice pack) and continental ice sheets are two different things.

                      The Quaternary glacial maxima are clearly defined.
                      Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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                      • #41
                        At the last glacial maximum, Beringia was above sea level and ice-free: An easy route for animal and human migrations into the Americas...



                        The route from Europe required crossing 2-3 continental ice sheets and about 1,000 miles of sea ice.


                        The continental ice sheets were literally mountain ranged of ice. The Laurentide ice sheet was taller than the Rocky Mountains...



                        All of the archaeological, DNA and geological evidence points to Beringia.
                        Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Certainly a lot of the evidence points to Beringia, but there is more evidence coming in that suggests influx of people from other places. Archaeologists dug into a cave in Brazil and found African type skeletons from a period before the Amerinds crossed the ice sheets. There is a chain of seamounts between Brazil and Africa that would have been islands during the ice age that could have been used as stops on a migration across the Atlantic. All you need is leather boats to cross stretches of ocean. Ask St Brendan!

                          As time goes along we will get more information and concoct new theories.

                          Pruitt
                          Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                          Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                          by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                            Certainly a lot of the evidence points to Beringia,
                            ALL of the evidence points to Beringia.

                            Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                            but there is more evidence coming in that suggests influx of people from other places. Archaeologists dug into a cave in Brazil and found African type skeletons from a period before the Amerinds crossed the ice sheets. There is a chain of seamounts between Brazil and Africa that would have been islands during the ice age that could have been used as stops on a migration across the Atlantic. All you need is leather boats to cross stretches of ocean. Ask St Brendan!

                            As time goes along we will get more information and concoct new theories.

                            Pruitt
                            The "Luzia woman" was not of direct African origin.
                            Her facial features include a narrow, oval cranium, projecting face and pronounced chin, strikingly dissimilar to most native Americans and their indigenous Siberian forebears. Anthropologists have variously described Luzia's features as resembling those of Africans, Indigenous Australians, Melanesians and the Negritos of Southeast Asia. Walter Neves, an anthropologist at the University of São Paulo, suggests that Luzia's features most strongly resemble those of Australian Aboriginal peoples. Richard Neave of Manchester University, who undertook a facial reconstruction of Luzia (see the photograph above), stated that "I personally would stick my neck out and say it is conclusive support for his [Neve's] findings and demonstrates without any doubt at all" that Luzia was not closely related to Siberian peoples.[3]

                            Neves and other Brazilian anthropologists have theorized that Luzia's Paleo-Indian predecessors lived in South East Asia for tens of thousands of years, after migrating from Africa, and began arriving in the New World, as early as 15,000 years ago. Some anthropologists have hypothesized that Paleo-Indians migrated along the coast of East Asia and Beringia in small watercraft, before or during the last Ice Age.

                            Neves' conclusions have been challenged by research done by anthropologists Rolando Gonzalez-Jose, Frank Williams and William Armelagos who have shown in their studies that the cranio-facial variability could just be due to genetic drift and other factors affecting cranio-facial plasticity in Native Americans.[4][5][6]

                            It had been hypotehsized that Luiza and other Paleo-Indians arrived in the Americas about 3,000 years earlier than Amerindians from Siberia, However, the most recent radiometric dating provides an age of 10,300 (+/-60) years for Luiza. This coupled with the fact that her cranial features could simply be due to genetic drift, casts doubt on an earlier migration of Paleo-Indians from Southeast Asia via Beringia.

                            There is no evidence of migrations into the Americas via any route other than Beringia.

                            There is evidence of contact between Polynesians and Pre-Columbian Amerindians of South America. However, there is no evidence that Polynesians established settlements.
                            Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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                            • #44
                              Dave you say there is no evidence of influx of European gene markers, but this overlooks the Y Chromosome R1. It is the second largest of Y Chromosomes found in Amerind populations and the experts can't say for sure how it got to North America.

                              I am R1b and I bet you are an R as well.

                              Pruitt
                              Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                              Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                              by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                                Dave you say there is no evidence of influx of European gene markers, but this overlooks the Y Chromosome R1. It is the second largest of Y Chromosomes found in Amerind populations and the experts can't say for sure how it got to North America.

                                I am R1b and I bet you are an R as well.

                                Pruitt
                                It's the same pathway as mitochondrial DNA X...

                                Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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