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Uranus flops, Mars succeeds!

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  • Uranus flops, Mars succeeds!

    Since the ol' Ostfront seems to be the big thing for Alt Hist these days, Here's my bid-

    The attempt to encircle the 6th army at Stalingrad fails, but Mars is a big win for the Red Army. What then?

    The situation down south would have to be different, so lets say that von Paulus had mostly ceased offensive operations in mid-October and withdrawn his Mechanized units to Kalach for refit, only doing enough fighting to give the Newsreels somthing to show. This isn't the Quartermaster Corps, he gets caught, sacked, and replaced... by Model. GrossDeustchland and a couple of other key Divisions have been brought down from 9th Army (replaced by LW Field Divisions in the Rzhev area) and prepped for a winter attack towards Ashtrakhan or some such thing.
    Logistics? yeah, okay, we can say that some bright chap actually went and made use of the extensive canal system in that part of the USSR.


    So, situation contained, but as for MARS-
    All the German units in the north half of the salient are in the bag, and Sovient tanks are halfway to Smolensk before anyone can do anything about it.

    The Question is, what CAN they do?
    And, in the overall picture, isn't this an even worse disaster for the 3rd Reich?

  • #2
    Could the Soviets have even pulled this off? I mean, a large part of the success of Uranus was the breakthrough in the lines of Germany's satellite armies, rather than the Germans themselves. IMHO at this time in history the Red Army was not yet ready to sustain a breakthrough of the magnitude necessary to cut off and destroy the Rzhev Salient.

    I think they could cause the lines to bend, but they would not break. Almost an anti-Kursk on a smaller scale.
    Divine Mercy Sunday: 4/21/2020 (https://www.thedivinemercy.org/message) The Miracle of Lanciano: Jesus' Real Presence (https://web.archive.org/web/20060831...fcontents.html)

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    • #3
      Not if I take 3 mechanized Divs out and replace them with LW Divs.

      The Operation was designed to succeed, what if it had?

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      • #4
        I read an operational history of Mars. The Soviets had no excuse for failing. The Rzhev assault forces were better than those used in Uranus and were first class soviet divisions, of the same or higher caliber that were used in the Soviet winter counteroffensive of 1942-1943. More armor was used at Rzhev and the artillery strength was good.

        9 AOK was about half strength (although manning good positions) with first class divisions.

        The slaughterhouse that ensued was largely due to excellent generalship by Model and his corps commanders and the tactical skills of the 9 AOK formations. It was an abnormally good military performance by the Germans that was rarely repeated.

        Originally posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
        Could the Soviets have even pulled this off? I mean, a large part of the success of Uranus was the breakthrough in the lines of Germany's satellite armies, rather than the Germans themselves. IMHO at this time in history the Red Army was not yet ready to sustain a breakthrough of the magnitude necessary to cut off and destroy the Rzhev Salient.

        I think they could cause the lines to bend, but they would not break. Almost an anti-Kursk on a smaller scale.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
          I read an operational history of Mars. The Soviets had no excuse for failing. The Rzhev assault forces were better than those used in Uranus and were first class soviet divisions, of the same or higher caliber that were used in the Soviet winter counteroffensive of 1942-1943. More armor was used at Rzhev and the artillery strength was good.

          9 AOK was about half strength (although manning good positions) with first class divisions.

          The slaughterhouse that ensued was largely due to excellent generalship by Model and his corps commanders and the tactical skills of the 9 AOK formations. It was an abnormally good military performance by the Germans that was rarely repeated.
          At Rzhev Germans iddn't had their flanks garded by allied troops poorly equiped and trained. They also enjoyed good reserves which they used to counter-attack the Soviets. The also had the advantage of positions and terrain.
          There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

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          • #6
            ^

            9AOK had around 300-200 runners tops in Rzhev before the reserves joined in to perform the counterstrokes. Their infantry was down to around 50% at the beginning of the battle. Konev and Zhukov had over 3,300 runners surrounding 9 AOK. They committed around 2,200 into the fight.

            The Soviets were able to concentrate up to 5-6:1 numerical supremacy in armor, artillery, and manpower in each of the 4 salients.

            The Soviet failure came largely down to operational incompetence by their planners and the tendency to reinforce failure during this battle. They had plenty of time to plan and even had a much more successful attack (circa August 1942). They understood the region- the rest are excuses, really.

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            • #7
              Right right, and as I siad in the OP, Model has already replaced von Paulus and is down at Stalingrad.

              Now, as a result of Stalingrad, the Germans lost over 300k men and had to fall all the way back to the Dnieper before they were able to counter-attack and stabilize the front. That's a long way to go back before getting your act together again.

              They didn't have that kind of space to play with up north.
              So... what happens?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
                So... what happens?
                A miniature Bagration?
                Divine Mercy Sunday: 4/21/2020 (https://www.thedivinemercy.org/message) The Miracle of Lanciano: Jesus' Real Presence (https://web.archive.org/web/20060831...fcontents.html)

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