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Shattered Jade: Japanese Götterdämmerung, 1945-1947

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  • #46
    Don't forget the IJA was fond of human suicide bombers as well. One of there plans was to used armed civilians to rush the tanks armed with sharpened bamboo poles and some guys that carried 100 pound charges in a back pack. The IJA also gave its troops antitank grenades, Molotov Cocktails and magnetic charges as well. The more Citizen Militia types that were killed taking out high value targets, the fewer people the IJA had to worry about feeding in the combat zone.

    That Japanese 47mm antitank gun could take out any US Tank (not sure about the front of a M-26). The Japanese also provided any artillery antitank shells and tied them into the tank defense zone. Those 75mm guns were actually designed as Regimental Guns. The little Battalion 70mm Gun/Mortar had a HEAT round that made it a great antitank weapon!

    Pruitt
    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
      I would offer that the figure of 190,000 Artillery pieces would have included antitank weapons of 37mm up to the 70mm Battalion Howitzer/Mortars. The Japanese often used these antitank weapons in China as a direct fire weapon. The US Marines used a similar 37mm antitank weapon firing canister. I can't say if any Army used a 37mm HE round.

      Pruitt
      I even doubt this number if it would include every barrel (AT, Mortars).
      The Japanese economy was the weakest of all Major Powers (not counting Italy as a Major Power here). A large proportion of their war efforts went into ship and Aircraft production.
      My guess is that Japan produced well under a 100,000 Artillery pieces, Mortars and AT guns
      One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
        That Japanese 47mm antitank gun could take out any US Tank (not sure about the front of a M-26). The Japanese also provided any artillery antitank shells and tied them into the tank defense zone. Those 75mm guns were actually designed as Regimental Guns. The little Battalion 70mm Gun/Mortar had a HEAT round that made it a great antitank weapon!

        Pruitt
        Yes, according to this link, "Japanese Tank and Antitank Warfare" from the Military Intelligence division of the War Department (pg 82)
        http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/car...c/number34.pdf:

        Type 1 (1941) 47-mm Tank Gun
        This tank gun appears to be a modified version of the Type 1 (1941) 47-mm Japanese antitank gun. The sliding wedge breech-block mechanism, however, has been changed from a horizontal to a vertical position. It is a high-velocity gun, equipped with a hydrospring recoil mechanism and a semiautomatic breechblock...

        Tests have shown that the gun will penetrate at least 3.25 inches [83 mm] of armor plate at 500 yards, at normal angle of impact.
        That little gun was a beast.
        Divine Mercy Sunday: 4/21/2020 (https://www.thedivinemercy.org/message) The Miracle of Lanciano: Jesus' Real Presence (https://web.archive.org/web/20060831...fcontents.html)

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Hanov View Post
          I even doubt this number if it would include every barrel (AT, Mortars).
          The Japanese economy was the weakest of all Major Powers (not counting Italy as a Major Power here). A large proportion of their war efforts went into ship and Aircraft production.
          My guess is that Japan produced well under a 100,000 Artillery pieces, Mortars and AT guns
          Yes, as I said before, I don't really know what to make of this figure. I do know, however, that total Japanese mortar production, especially taking into account the light 50mm models, far surpassed 100,000.

          Hell to Pay, pg 165:
          ...in the meantime, rifles and automatic weapons of adequate quality could be manufactured easily in small, decentralized armories. As an example, production was already flying on the simple Type 89 grenade launcher, really a personal mortar...Some 28,428 were available [in the Home Islands] at wars' end, and production of their ballistic grenades far exceeded individual weapons needs as 51 million, or 1,794 per barrel, were turned over to the Americans.
          Divine Mercy Sunday: 4/21/2020 (https://www.thedivinemercy.org/message) The Miracle of Lanciano: Jesus' Real Presence (https://web.archive.org/web/20060831...fcontents.html)

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          • #50
            I dunno, Gents. None of this extra kit or spare civilian bodies gets around the fact that US Marine and army squads had such tremendous firepower by 1945 that they could, and did, literally drown a Japanes unit in lead. Expand that to platoons, coys and battalions with artillery, tank and air support and I suspct the invasion would have been a very on sided affair. While allied losses would have been heavy Japan would have collapsed economically, politically and, finally, militarily.

            When one looks at the ground engagements between the allied forces across the theatre, tactically, the Japanese did very poorly after their initial flood forward in 1942. While doctrine was essentially 'infilitration' similar to the German methods of 1918, lack of training and discipline often turned this into rather clumsy frontal assault (even after discounting banzai attacks). The allies were regularly able to repulse assaults with comparitively smaller, but but better equipped force. In an invasion of Japan, the defenders could simply hide in caves and bunkers. To use their numbers and close assault weapons they come to the surface, where they would have been shredded, burned and blasted in short order.

            It may make good print and fiction stories to state they would form small bodies of guerillas and other ambush groups but the real world does not work like that. These scenarios depend on the Japanese being total mindless fanatics who have no concern whatsoever for their own lives or those of their families and loved ones. While a soldier may have been prepared to die for their emperor and country they were clearly not willing to throw their own lives and those of their families away. Even the Emperor and the majority of the general staff and officer corps did not expect this.

            As there wouldhave be no 'national' suicide and the allies were not going to be deterred, the only other option was surrender - which is exactly what happened. The mortars, 47mm guns, dug in tanks and all the rest would not have altered this basic reality
            The Purist

            Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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            • #51
              Don't forget the IJA was fond of human suicide bombers as well. One of there plans was to used armed civilians to rush the tanks armed with sharpened bamboo poles and some guys that carried 100 pound charges in a back pack. The IJA also gave its troops antitank grenades, Molotov Cocktails and magnetic charges as well. The more Citizen Militia types that were killed taking out high value targets, the fewer people the IJA had to worry about feeding in the combat zone.
              Their effect was very low. They lost 500 men for 10 Soviet tanks damaged an destroyed.

              http://www.stoletie.ru/print.php?ID=34999
              There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Emtos View Post
                Their effect was very low. They lost 500 men for 10 Soviet tanks damaged an destroyed.
                But at the rate of 50 men for one tank, soon all the Red Army tanks will be gone! In Japan there would have been hordes of civilians as well as the IJA trying for the same thing.

                Pruitt
                Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                  But at the rate of 50 men for one tank, soon all the Red Army tanks will be gone! In Japan there would have been hordes of civilians as well as the IJA trying for the same thing.

                  Pruitt
                  Those kamikaze were especially trained for similar missions. If it were simply civilians with explosives, the results would have been even more catastrophical. Plus after a few similar attacks, there would be counter-measures put in place to avoid this.
                  There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Emtos View Post
                    Those kamikaze were especially trained for similar missions. If it were simply civilians with explosives, the results would have been even more catastrophical. Plus after a few similar attacks, there would be counter-measures put in place to avoid this.
                    The US, having had experience with this type of thing before, did have protocols for dealing with this, i.e, close protection by infantry squads (I think this exact topic was covered in an ACG Magazine scenario a few years ago).

                    Plus, the Japanese Patriotic Citizens' Fighting Corps had 28 million members. They would, (not to mention the considerable AT weaponry of the regular Army and paramilitary units already discussed above), be able to inflict considerable damage in environments such as rice paddies and urban ruins, such as Tokyo, where the potential for ambushes and close-quarters engagements would minimize the time for defending US or Commonwealth infantry to react.

                    The Red Army, on the other hand, had little experience fighting human bombs, and would have needed a bit more time to 'acquaint' themselves through hard experience.
                    Divine Mercy Sunday: 4/21/2020 (https://www.thedivinemercy.org/message) The Miracle of Lanciano: Jesus' Real Presence (https://web.archive.org/web/20060831...fcontents.html)

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
                      Yes, as I said before, I don't really know what to make of this figure. I do know, however, that total Japanese mortar production, especially taking into account the light 50mm models, far surpassed 100,000.
                      Unfortunately i have no book about Japanese War production. The only thing i found (quick and dirty search of the WWW) is a Wiki article:

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar...II#Land_forces

                      The article states some 13,000 Artillery and 29,000 Mortar pieces
                      Even less than i guessed...
                      One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
                        The US, having had experience with this type of thing before, did have protocols for dealing with this, i.e, close protection by infantry squads (I think this exact topic was covered in an ACG Magazine scenario a few years ago).

                        Plus, the Japanese Patriotic Citizens' Fighting Corps had 28 million members. They would, (not to mention the considerable AT weaponry of the regular Army and paramilitary units already discussed above), be able to inflict considerable damage in environments such as rice paddies and urban ruins, such as Tokyo, where the potential for ambushes and close-quarters engagements would minimize the time for defending US or Commonwealth infantry to react.

                        The Red Army, on the other hand, had little experience fighting human bombs, and would have needed a bit more time to 'acquaint' themselves through hard experience.
                        Soviets already had experience with Japanese attacks in 1939 plus they also had the experience with German panzerfaust attack. It wouldn't take long time to get used to Japanese suicide attacks. With the high quantity of SMGs in Soviet troops and the practice of tank escorts, would turn kamikazes to meat. In case of important Japanese resistance, USSR also would have deployed heavy tanks IS-2 and IS-3 who were simply invulnerable to any Japanese guns except maybe the heavy AA guns.
                        There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by The Purist View Post
                          These scenarios depend on the Japanese being total mindless fanatics who have no concern whatsoever for their own lives or those of their families and loved ones. While a soldier may have been prepared to die for their emperor and country they were clearly not willing to throw their own lives and those of their families away. Even the Emperor and the majority of the general staff and officer corps did not expect this.

                          As there wouldhave be no 'national' suicide and the allies were not going to be deterred, the only other option was surrender - which is exactly what happened. The mortars, 47mm guns, dug in tanks and all the rest would not have altered this basic reality
                          Unfortunately, this was exactly the situation the Allies would be facing. If they were ordered to do so by the Government (and by extension the Emperor himself), the Japanese, soldiers and civilians, would gladly throw their lives away by the millions. This is not to say the Japanese race would have perished to the last man, but remember situations in the Pacific (Saipan, Okinawa), in which civilians threw themselves off cliffs and blew themselves up with grenades. I remember one particularly horrifying instance from a documentary in which a mother asked her daughter to bash her head in with a rock. In defending their Homeland and Emperor, this fanaticism would have only increased. This is why the Allies were so fearful of invading- there were no civilians in Japan!
                          Everyone was a combatant. It would have been a bloodbath without parallel in human history.
                          Divine Mercy Sunday: 4/21/2020 (https://www.thedivinemercy.org/message) The Miracle of Lanciano: Jesus' Real Presence (https://web.archive.org/web/20060831...fcontents.html)

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
                            If the US took S.Korea, (which, if Japan continued resisting, it would not/did not plan to), then yes, this is a good point. (Assuming you mean the US would still be helping to feed the Japanese citizenry to bring them back from the brink of starvation.) But, as it is, it seems the Soviets would eventually bring all of Korea under their control in this scenario, which I noted earlier would bring the front lines of the Cold War much closer together, as the only border between the DPRK and Japan would be the Tsushima Strait.
                            I can see a case where South Korea is taken so that Kyushu can be 'shuttle bombed' - either by American or by Soviet air forces, which are short range tactical forces.

                            After broad leaf defoliation, massive forest incendiary attacks would send Kyushu up in smoke- denying mountain cover. However, since Kyushu gets over seventy inches of rain a year, you would get MASSIVE land damage.
                            The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Emtos View Post
                              In case of important Japanese resistance, USSR also would have deployed heavy tanks IS-2 and IS-3 who were simply invulnerable to any Japanese guns except maybe the heavy AA guns.
                              http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._of_armour.jpg

                              The Japanese Type 1 47mm could penetrate 83mm of armor at 500 yards.

                              The Type 90 75mm field gun/AT gun could penetrate 65mm at 1100 yards.

                              The Type 88 75mm AA/AT gun could penetrate 70mm at 1,500 yards.

                              The Russian tanks were not invulnerable. The Japanese could destroy them at medium to long range. Even the IS-2 and IS-3 were vulnerable in places to the 47mm.
                              Divine Mercy Sunday: 4/21/2020 (https://www.thedivinemercy.org/message) The Miracle of Lanciano: Jesus' Real Presence (https://web.archive.org/web/20060831...fcontents.html)

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
                                http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._of_armour.jpg

                                The Japanese Type 1 47mm could penetrate 83mm of armor at 500 yards.

                                The Type 90 75mm field gun/AT gun could penetrate 65mm at 1100 yards.

                                The Type 88 75mm AA/AT gun could penetrate 70mm at 1,500 yards.

                                The Russian tanks were not invulnerable. The Japanese could destroy them at medium to long range. Even the IS-2 and IS-3 were vulnerable in places to the 47mm.
                                The slopped armor made them far more resilient since Japanese guns achieved those results against vertical plates. It would force the Japanese to use ambushes and really short range which would be not easy in open areas like Manchuria or Hokkaido.
                                There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

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