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Halsey's Third Fleet 1945 vs RN taskforce in Falklands war

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  • Halsey's Third Fleet 1945 vs RN taskforce in Falklands war

    Here is the scenario:

    RN taskforce under ADM Sandy Woodward seeks to reconquer the Falklands Islands. Halsey's Third fleet seeks to destroy the RN force before it can conquer the islands.

    Both sides know that an enemy fleet is out there but have no idea where they are. Halsey positions his fleet to be in range of the Falklands Islands.

    Who wins?

  • #2
    Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
    Here is the scenario:

    RN taskforce under ADM Sandy Woodward seeks to reconquer the Falklands Islands. Halsey's Third fleet seeks to destroy the RN force before it can conquer the islands.

    Both sides know that an enemy fleet is out there but have no idea where they are. Halsey positions his fleet to be in range of the Falklands Islands.

    Who wins?
    The Brits sink every platform the yanks have. Why? Guided torpedoes, and better ability to locate and prosecute attacks. Do you know how much noise a surface fleet generates?

    For a TOE of the British forces.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British..._Falklands_War

    Blub Blub go the US Carriers then the doom really starts as long rang missiles disable the rest...
    Credo quia absurdum.


    Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
      The Brits sink every platform the yanks have. Why? Guided torpedoes, and better ability to locate and prosecute attacks. Do you know how much noise a surface fleet generates?

      For a TOE of the British forces.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British..._Falklands_War

      Blub Blub go the US Carriers then the doom really starts as long rang missiles disable the rest...
      The RN sub force do not carry enough guided torpedo to sink every carrier/battleship/heavy cruiser there in the fleet (11 fleet carriers, 6 light carriers, 7 battleships and 18 heavy cruisers). HMS Conqueror fired 3 MK8 (non guided) torpedoes just to sink a light cruiser.

      Secondly, SSN are deadly so long as you can get them to where the Third fleet will be. It his harder than you think to catch up then stalked a fast carrier group, even with guided torpedoes. Don't get me wrong, given enough time and unlimited reloads, RN subs would sink them. The question is: can they do it before Halsey finds the RN fleet and launches an alpha strike.
      Last edited by IDonT4; 21 Jan 15, 11:39.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
        The RN sub force do not carry enough guided torpedo to sink every carrier/battleship/heavy cruiser there in the fleet (11 fleet carriers, 6 light carriers, 7 battleships and 18 heavy cruisers). HMS Conqueror fired 3 MK8 (non guided) torpedoes just to sink a light cruiser.

        Secondly, SSN are deadly so long as you can get them to where the Third fleet will be. It his harder than you think to catch up then stalked a fast carrier group, even with guided torpedoes. Don't get me wrong, given enough time and unlimited Spearfish reloads, RN subs would sink them. The question is: can they do it before Halsey finds the RN fleet and launches an alpha strike.

        Well what I meant was that the subs go after the carriers solely. After that its all over...
        Credo quia absurdum.


        Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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        • #5
          Does Woodward have authority to use every weapon at his disposal?
          Diadochi Rising Wargame:
          King Pairisades I of the Bosporan Kingdom

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Anacreon View Post
            Does Woodward have authority to use every weapon at his disposal?
            All but nukes.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
              The RN sub force do not carry enough guided torpedo to sink every carrier/battleship/heavy cruiser there in the fleet (11 fleet carriers, 6 light carriers, 7 battleships and 18 heavy cruisers).
              And nearly 100 CVEs.
              Hyperwar: World War II on the World Wide Web
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              • #8
                Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                Well what I meant was that the subs go after the carriers solely. After that its all over...
                There were only 5 SSN in the RN taskforce. Furthermore, early models of the Tigerfish torpedo (mod 0 and mod 1) have poor reliability on top of its small warhead. That is why HMS conqueror used the MK 8 (WWII vintage) torpedo to sink the Belgrano.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
                  There were only 5 SSN in the RN taskforce. Furthermore, early models of the Tigerfish torpedo (mod 0 and mod 1) have poor reliability on top of its small warhead. That is why HMS conqueror used the MK 8 (WWII vintage) torpedo to sink the Belgrano.
                  Huh. I thought the Brits had decent torpedoes... But your right the early Tigerfish were pretty bad...

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigerfish_%28torpedo%29
                  Credo quia absurdum.


                  Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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                  • #10
                    Depending on how the US wants to play this they could make things very difficult for the British at sea.
                    The first tactic I'd use is that the destroyers escorting the fleet randomly drop a depth charge every few minutes near the carriers.
                    That won't stop an attack boat but it will make anything other than visual targeting nearly impossible due to the massive amount of ambient noise in the water.

                    A massed air strike gotten off would almost certainly result in serious damage to many of the ships in the British task force as they are not configured to deal with masses of aircraft like that. That's a conscientious design result of modern jet aircraft being fewer in number. While the British would shoot down a considerable number the sheer size of a strike of two hundred + aircraft would result in sufficient hits to cripple a number of ships. Any British frigate taking a solid 500 lb bomb hit that detonated would cripple the ship. Destroyers wouldn't fare much better.
                    Any British ship other than the two carriers present would be all but finished on a single solid torpedo hit as well.
                    Rockets and strafing would be serious threats not just to topside systems like radar and communications, but to flooding and stability as well.

                    In the end, in this scenario it comes down to whether or not the RN's attack boats can land early strikes on the US carriers and other capital units.
                    The depth charge noise "jamming" would have very serious effects on their being able to use anything other than close in attacks. If the US keeps their speed above 20 knots that too makes things more difficult as well as would zig zag manuvers. Reducing the British to time eating maneuvering to position for an attack could possibly buy the fleet enough time to get in range and get their strike off.

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                    • #11
                      Would the Brits be able to jam all US comms and radar?
                      Shoot the recce planes down and Halsey is blind,he has no other way to detect the TF except HUFF DUFF and that's not going to pick up burst transmissions.

                      I've often wonder how difficult an old BB would be to sink by modern sea skimming missiles.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
                        Here is the scenario:

                        RN taskforce under ADM Sandy Woodward seeks to reconquer the Falklands Islands. Halsey's Third fleet seeks to destroy the RN force before it can conquer the islands.

                        Both sides know that an enemy fleet is out there but have no idea where they are. Halsey positions his fleet to be in range of the Falklands Islands.

                        Who wins?
                        Hi

                        So you've changed one historical aspect (Halseys 3rd Fleet) but still let the RN set sail historically correct-hardly a level playing field. I know how much you like to bash the RN, especially when arrayed against the USN or IJN

                        I would suggest to you that if the RN had known that 3rd fleet was there, that they would either not set sail at all or reinforce Woodwards command, especially the submarine element (17 Diesel Electric & 11 Nuc Hunter Killer). In addition maybe some more ad-hoc merchant A/C's to accommodate an increased RAF Harrier GR3's would possibly double the Harrier force to around 70'ish. The more advanced radar 7 electronics would give the RN a decided edge in either finding or evading the USN. Obviously numbers carry a certain inherent quality, but unless one stacks the field ludicrously, no naval commander worth his salt would back a WW2 TF against a modern Naval TF.

                        Regards

                        Andy H
                        Last edited by Andy H; 21 Jan 15, 19:43.
                        "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

                        "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
                          ...
                          Secondly, SSN are deadly so long as you can get them to where the Third fleet will be. It his harder than you think to catch up then stalked a fast carrier group, even with guided torpedoes. Don't get me wrong, given enough time and unlimited reloads, RN subs would sink them. The question is: can they do it before Halsey finds the RN fleet and launches an alpha strike.
                          Somewhat easier than otherwise based on the nature of the respective missions. The US would be trying to intercept the RN task force before it could invade the Falklands, as I understand it. The RN surface forces could simply hang back while the subs did their damage, or the US left an open run to the Falklands.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by flash View Post
                            Would the Brits be able to jam all US comms and radar?
                            Shoot the recce planes down and Halsey is blind,he has no other way to detect the TF except HUFF DUFF and that's not going to pick up burst transmissions.

                            I've often wonder how difficult an old BB would be to sink by modern sea skimming missiles.
                            I don't know about the comm issues, but a BB would be next to impossible to sink by missile fire alone. Torpedoes deal with a totally different aspect of the BB. But Missile Fire, especially SSMs, would be running straight into the heaviest armor belt the ship has, and into the best compartmentalization. BBs were designed to withstand fire from shells flying at roughly missile velocity, maybe even a bit better, and weighing in at a ton or slightly more, with the entire shell being mass behind a penetrator with a burster. A modern ASM is relatively fragile, and its strength is on its high blast from its large explosive warhead. The effect would be roughly equivalent to the BB being hit by a 12-14" HE shell....lots of surface damage but no substantial armor penetration....and the HE shell might even do slightly better than a missile due to design.

                            A few years ago there was some debate on penetrating the USS Missouri with an ASM, and we found a missile that would penetrate. IIRC it was the AT-14 Kornet ATGM. Modern ASMs simply didn't have the warhead design, despite a far heavier warhead, to penetrate BB type armor belts at all....much less reliably. If BBs were still about as a viable naval unit, the four kill options would be torpedoes, air dropped AP bombs in the 1000-2000lb range, Shellfire (from other BBs), or redesigning the warheads of ASMs to allow them to have a HEAT warhead.....probably a dual stage warhead with HEAT backed by conventional explosive to penetrate the belt and then cause internal damage.....or have the missiles function in 'top attack' mode like we do for MBTs today. Of what's in the current US inventory, if I had to attack the Mighty Mo with what we have on a Guided Missile Cruiser, I'd be using Tomahawks....or torpedoes if we have any for the helos to launch. Just mission kill by wrecking the superstructure with the blast of the biggest warheads I've got and hope the fires make the ship succumb.
                            Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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                            • #15
                              Actually, most modern ASM's used linear shaped charge warheads. Against an "All or nothing" battleship one of these would penetrate the armor above the belt, where it is most likely to hit and then devastate the deck it hit on and everything across the width of the ship only impeded by deck armor to going up and down.

                              While that wouldn't sink a battleship two or three hits like that would pretty much make it a constructive loss for the battle space.

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