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Nazi jet aircraft pionners go to the Japanese Empire

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  • Nazi jet aircraft pionners go to the Japanese Empire

    Here is something I thought of, not sure if anyone has had the same thought.

    Alternate timeline I

    1 November 1940
    Ernst Heinkel, Robert Lusser, Alexander Lippisch, Hans von Ohain, Siegfried and Walter Günte, Walter Blume, Horten brothers, Adolph Busemann, and Secondo Campini are sent to Korea.
    Following the disaster of the Battle of Britain, Hitler orders them to go to Japanese occupied Korea to design and produce new aircraft to win the war. They are given free reign to research and design. They set up shop at the Showa plant in Pyongyang as the hub of their collaboration, closely guarded by Nazi intelligence. Japanese aircraft manufacturers, Nakajima and Mitsubishi work closely with them, learning all they can about jet engine aircraft so they can quickly produce them.

    Germany helps also in the extensive industrialization of Korea’s coal mines, railways and ship transport. Liquefaction of coal for jet fuels would be rapidly expanded. Steel, aluminum and rubber plants are built and enhanced.

    15 October 1944
    A fully developed jet fighter is operational in substantial numbers over Japan and when American B-29’s make their first raid over Japan, they would encounter fighter jets and the P-51’s escorting wouldn’t just encounter the handful of prototype fighter jets like over Germany, but full fighter wings with much longer training, testing and production. As air raids become too costly to continue, the US pushes for the ground war, hoping it can use what it lacks in technology with what it has in numbers. Getting P-38s and P-47s close enough to also be escorts for B-29s. By this time though, jet bombers arrive and allied fighters can’t catch them. A stalemate ensues until the US can develop a jet engine fighter too.

    Alternate timeline II

    1 November 1940
    Ernst Heinkel, Robert Lusser, Alexander Lippisch, Hans von Ohain, Siegfried and Walter Günte, Walter Blume, Horten brothers, Adolph Busemann, and Secondo Campini are sent to Korea.
    Following the disaster of the Battle of Britain, Hitler orders them to go to Japanese occupied Korea to design and produce new aircraft to win the war. They are given free reign to research and design. They set up shop at the Showa plant in Pyongyang as the hub of their collaboration, closely guarded by Nazi intelligence.
    Japan decides to allow them to conduct their research but isn’t really interested. They don’t cooperate as much as planned and instead think they can develop better propeller driven aircraft on their own.

    15 October 1944
    A whole line of jet engine aircraft concepts have been drawn, tested and produced. Including, light and heavy fighters, night fighters, dive bombers, torpedo bombers, aircraft launched fighters and bombers, light, medium and heavy bombers, and reconnaissance aircraft. Japanese see the usefulness but by this time it’s too late to begin full production of them and pretty soon, A-bombs explode over Japan.

    9–20 August 1945
    The Soviets invade Manchuria and Northern Korea. They confiscate all jet engine aircraft designs and capture all the foreigners involved in the effort. They are put to use to put into full production all of those designs right away. Within a year the Soviets have fully operational jet fighters, bombers and reconnaissance planes.

    1 November 1950
    After the Korean War is started and China intervenes, the Soviets allow their aircraft to provide air cover. Since there has been uninterrupted jet engine research and development in Korea and the USSR for the last 10 years, their aircraft are years ahead of anything the UN has, if they even have operational jet aircraft yet since most of the expertise they needed was captured in Pyongyang 5 years earlier. The war goes badly for the UN without an effective air cover. Foreign forces are forced to withdraw completely from the peninsula. Sino-Soviet relations are at the highest and continue to be for a long time.

    What are the modern day consequences if either alternate timelines were to come true?
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  • #2
    Haven't you seen the Japanese copy of the Me 262 and their twin engine version of the Me 163 Komet? The Japanese designers were as good as Germany's designers. They just started at different places than the Germans. They also had more problems getting certain metals.

    Germany did send the blueprints for the Me 262 and a jet engine for one by submarine.

    The engine that the Soviets really made use of was the Rolls Royce Derwent and its successor the Nene.

    Pruitt
    Last edited by Pruitt; 24 Oct 14, 23:42.
    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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    • #3
      Yes I'm aware that the Japanese built a Me-262 copy but here I am saying the whole expertise of the Axis aviation sector working on jet aircraft come to the East to help the Japanese with the goal of defeating the Allies in the East (or at least making it very costly so that they would have to reallocate forces from Europe, Africa and western Russia to go fight in the Pacific), relieving some of the pressure on the Germans. It also gives a place for unhindered development and production without threat of bombing and resource shortages. A jet fighter capable of hitting bombers and outrunning their escorts in the pacific will also relieve Japan of the effects of bombing, which some argue was as bad if not worse than the two atom bombs. I could also imagine the IJN using a jet dive bomber with good results against the USN.
      The Europa Barbarorum II team [M2TW] needs YOUR HELP NOW HERE!

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
        .... They also had more problems getting certain metals. ....
        Production of reliable engines was as problematic as with the Germans. The test engines had their pros and cons, but dont look like good examples of what a production engine might have looked like. While there were deposits of Chrome, Titanium, nickel, ect... in Japans territory the exploitation infrastructure was underdeveloped, or not at all in some cases. Transportation of the raw material or finished items to Japan was increasingly difficult.

        Training of pilots was even more difficult than with the Germans, leaving perhaps 200 suitable experienced pilots to draw from. Putting undertrained pilots in a new and relatively hot aircraft without a adaquate training program never has positive results.

        If the weapons of the IJA 262 are set up for general air combat, vs the bomber killer suite of the Me262 the aircraft is still a second rate fighter with the best tactic against other fighters of the era to run away & not manuver with them. Beyond that the same airfield attack strategy the RAF & USAAF used would be viable vs even the wildly optimistic production proposed for the IJA jet interceptors.

        Bottom line is the US suffers a slightly higher air combat loss 1944-45. Statistically very low, tho producing a lot of war stories and post war historical commentary.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Frtigern View Post
          Yes I'm aware that the Japanese built a Me-262 copy but here I am saying the whole expertise of the Axis aviation sector working on jet aircraft come to the East to help the Japanese with the goal of defeating the Allies in the East (or at least making it very costly so that they would have to reallocate forces from Europe, Africa and western Russia to go fight in the Pacific), relieving some of the pressure on the Germans. It also gives a place for unhindered development and production without threat of bombing and resource shortages. A jet fighter capable of hitting bombers and outrunning their escorts in the pacific will also relieve Japan of the effects of bombing, which some argue was as bad if not worse than the two atom bombs. I could also imagine the IJN using a jet dive bomber with good results against the USN.
          It's likely a non-starter. The main problem the Germans ran into trying to perfect their jet engines was the lack of suitable alloys from which to make the turbine blades. The Japanese were in even poorer shape regarding the level of their metallurgy and the availability of the alloying elements required to build jet engines. Even with all the expertise the Germans might have provided, IMHO a Japanese jet program would go nowhere fast.

          Regards
          Scott Fraser
          Ignorance is not the lack of knowledge. It is the refusal to learn.

          A contentedly cantankerous old fart

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          • #6
            Our submarines will still keep sinking Japanese merchant ships and Japan will still start to starve.

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            • #7
              Another problem is that many engineering sources the Germans had access to in Germany would be difficult to use in Korea. One important one is Brown Boveri in Switzerland. They are one of the world leaders in steam turbine design and engineering and their data on turbine design and efficiency was critical to the Germans, and even the Allies, in developing jet turbine engines.
              For instance, they played a major role in designing the compressor section of BMW's 003 engine.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Scott Fraser View Post
                It's likely a non-starter. The main problem the Germans ran into trying to perfect their jet engines was the lack of suitable alloys from which to make the turbine blades. The Japanese were in even poorer shape regarding the level of their metallurgy and the availability of the alloying elements required to build jet engines. Even with all the expertise the Germans might have provided, IMHO a Japanese jet program would go nowhere fast.
                Japanese had problems with metallurgy, heat treat and tolerances with their licensed Daimler-Benz DB601 copies.

                Going to jet turbines won't help that, and if the Nazis could get around 10 hours of runtime.....

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                • #9
                  AS stated, Japanese industry wasn't up to the job. And in either case, the tech still falls into US hands, so the outcome on world history continues unchanged.

                  The point you miss is that over Korea the Reds had superior aircraft designs for at least half the conflict and a parity for the rest of it, but failed to achieve air superiority because of pilot quality and doctrine.
                  Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Marathag View Post
                    Japanese had problems with metallurgy, heat treat and tolerances with their licensed Daimler-Benz DB601 copies.

                    Going to jet turbines won't help that, and if the Nazis could get around 10 hours of runtime.....
                    I would say the other problem would be the short range of jets and their needing about triple the volume of fuel a piston engine aircraft uses. Those would be complete deal breakers for the Japanese up to mid 1944 when they suddenly realize that they truly are about to see their home islands invaded.

                    Another problem is which service is doing this? Is the IJA or IJN developing these engines? Or, is the effort spilt between the two? Anyway you slice it the two services won't cooperate in their efforts to bring an engine into service so it is likely to slow development rather than speed it up.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                      Another problem is which service is doing this? Is the IJA or IJN developing these engines? Or, is the effort spilt between the two? Anyway you slice it the two services won't cooperate in their efforts to bring an engine into service so it is likely to slow development rather than speed it up.
                      Dual tracks: thats how it worked with the DB-601.

                      The Army version was far better than the Navy. Aichi Kokuki was not helped by Kawasaki, either.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Marathag View Post
                        Dual tracks: thats how it worked with the DB-601.

                        The Army version was far better than the Navy. Aichi Kokuki was not helped by Kawasaki, either.
                        That's because companies working the IJA were literally told they couldn't talk, discuss, or share anything with companies working for the IJN. It was so bad that many companies that worked for both on something had to have separate buildings that were designed where the workers from one couldn't go into the other service's part of the plant.

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