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Rudolf Hess does not fly to Scotland

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  • Rudolf Hess does not fly to Scotland

    If Hess had not flown to Scotland in 1941, and was thwarted from all angles in his closet peace making attempts, what role would he have played in Germany in the 4 years of the war? Did he have any influence on Hitler? Would he have been part of the 1944 conspiracy? Could he have been executed at Nuremberg or do all likely scenarios still have him dying in Spandau in 1987?

  • #2
    One potential result might be that Hess' close friendship with Karl Haushofer. This has the potential that Haushofer and Hess talk Hitler into not declaring war on the United States after Pearl Harbor.

    Now, that doesn't mean the US might not eventually declare war on Germany but it would be delayed. I can't see FDR declaring war on Germany while the US just went to war with Japan. The US public being what it is probably would have had negative issues with that.

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    • #3
      He was being pushed out of Hitler's inner circle, most see his flight to try and get a peace treaty with Britain as an attempt to restore his standing with Hitler.
      If he hadn't gone he would have been a fringe player in the Nazi party, with little power and ignored by Hitler.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by redcoat View Post
        He was being pushed out of Hitler's inner circle, most see his flight to try and get a peace treaty with Britain as an attempt to restore his standing with Hitler.
        If he hadn't gone he would have been a fringe player in the Nazi party, with little power and ignored by Hitler.
        Or 'Strassered'.
        The 1936 Berlin Olympics were an attempt to show 'a peaceful Reich well ordered.' and to get the world to minimise 1934, the year of the internal bloodbaths.
        The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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        • #5
          I'm not sure if Hess did not fly to Scotland that the timeline would change. However, if whatever the plan was, had been a success, then we would live in a very different world, presuming his plan was to conclude a peace with Britain. To me, the Hess secret is the biggest of the war that remains unanswered. That the files on him were kept secret for fifty years and not the usual thirty is itself indicitive that something very big is hidden. Then, when the fifty years was up and everybody waits for the files to be released, they are made secret for a further fifty years. This is incredible, and I can only conclude that the information is so damaging to Britain that the children of those alive and in positions of authority at the time will be dead, and even many of their grandchildren. What the hell is hidden? what very important person or persons, and not some Scots duke, is protected by this extreme level of secrecy that nobody must know for one hundred years.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Khepesh View Post
            I'm not sure if Hess did not fly to Scotland that the timeline would change. However, if whatever the plan was, had been a success, then we would live in a very different world, presuming his plan was to conclude a peace with Britain. To me, the Hess secret is the biggest of the war that remains unanswered. That the files on him were kept secret for fifty years and not the usual thirty is itself indicitive that something very big is hidden. Then, when the fifty years was up and everybody waits for the files to be released, they are made secret for a further fifty years. This is incredible, and I can only conclude that the information is so damaging to Britain that the children of those alive and in positions of authority at the time will be dead, and even many of their grandchildren. What the hell is hidden? what very important person or persons, and not some Scots duke, is protected by this extreme level of secrecy that nobody must know for one hundred years.
            In response to a question asked by a member of parliament in the House Of Commons in 2004, the government stated that all of the files relating to the flight and arrest of Hess in 1941 had been released to the public. The only files relating to Hess not released were the files concerning the last year's of his imprisonment which were still covered by the 30 year rule.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by redcoat View Post
              In response to a question asked by a member of parliament in the House Of Commons in 2004, the government stated that all of the files relating to the flight and arrest of Hess in 1941 had been released to the public. The only files relating to Hess not released were the files concerning the last year's of his imprisonment which were still covered by the 30 year rule.
              Yes, that being the fact he was murdered, how else can a person with advance senile dementia and arthritis that preventing him to raise his arms to tie a noose and then hanging himself.

              The problem is that this is kept secret because of the potential litigation that faces the British, French, Russian and US Governments that collectively decided to murder him thus finally shutting Spandau Prison, while he was alive those above nation were financially liable to keep the prison open for its sole prisoner.

              Even now the Hess family still want answers, those above governments are complicate in their collective silence.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by redcoat View Post
                In response to a question asked by a member of parliament in the House Of Commons in 2004, the government stated that all of the files relating to the flight and arrest of Hess in 1941 had been released to the public. The only files relating to Hess not released were the files concerning the last year's of his imprisonment which were still covered by the 30 year rule.
                I don't dispute that as I simply do not know, but, that being the case then we all know the details about Hess? because all I see are still essentially rumors and conspircy theories. It is not reasonable for anybody to believe that Hess flew to Scotland to meet the Duke of Hamilton, who knew nothing about it, to talk about a peace plan in the hope the Hamilton would then argue a case with higher authority. Hess was not mad, as is often a slur used against him, and would not have gone on his mission without first knowing he would meet somebody of serious influence, maybe the very top, not some duke who, apparently never even knew Hess was coming. If the files are released, then why do we still not know the full details of the mission, just this extremely weak and unbelievable story that he was only going to meet the Duke of Hamilton. It seems very clear he was going to meet somebody else, and by prior arrangement by both parties, so who was that person.

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                • #9
                  Were here any other places in Europe Hess could have flown to without Himmler and the rest finding him?

                  Pruitt
                  Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                  Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                  by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                    Were here any other places in Europe Hess could have flown to without Himmler and the rest finding him?

                    Pruitt
                    I know what you imply by that, but it is predicated on the supposition that Hess was escaping from the Reich, and there is no evidence of that, no reason for that. His mission failed, so he was disowned and slured with being "mad".

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                      Yes, that being the fact he was murdered, how else can a person with advance senile dementia and arthritis that preventing him to raise his arms to tie a noose and then hanging himself.

                      The problem is that this is kept secret because of the potential litigation that faces the British, French, Russian and US Governments that collectively decided to murder him thus finally shutting Spandau Prison, while he was alive those above nation were financially liable to keep the prison open for its sole prisoner.

                      Even now the Hess family still want answers, those above governments are complicate in their collective silence.
                      Odd that they decided to murder him, when he had advanced senile dementia and nobody would have taken his ravings seriously.
                      You would have thought the British would have murdered him in the 4 years when they had sole custody of him rather than wait until after he had undergone a public trial, and 40 more years of shared custody where both the USA and the Soviet Union could question him at their leisure.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Khepesh View Post
                        I don't dispute that as I simply do not know, but, that being the case then we all know the details about Hess? because all I see are still essentially rumors and conspircy theories. It is not reasonable for anybody to believe that Hess flew to Scotland to meet the Duke of Hamilton, who knew nothing about it, to talk about a peace plan in the hope the Hamilton would then argue a case with higher authority. Hess was not mad, as is often a slur used against him, and would not have gone on his mission without first knowing he would meet somebody of serious influence, maybe the very top, not some duke who, apparently never even knew Hess was coming. If the files are released, then why do we still not know the full details of the mission, just this extremely weak and unbelievable story that he was only going to meet the Duke of Hamilton. It seems very clear he was going to meet somebody else, and by prior arrangement by both parties, so who was that person.
                        The British interrogators had the same problem, they also couldn't understand what he was up too, and it led to a confused and botched response to Hess's arrival.
                        However after interviewing him at length the British came to the view that he was attempting to get in touch with the Duke Of Hamilton, who he viewed as someone sympathetic to Germany, despite only meeting him once in 1936 at the Olympic games.
                        Hess also told the interrogators the details of the so-called peace plan,
                        (taken from the British government file FO 371/34484)

                        "(i) That Germany should be given a free hand in Europe.

                        (ii) That England should have a free hand in the British Empire, except that the ex-
                        German colonies should be returned to Germany.

                        (iii) That Russia should be included in Asia, but that Germany had certain demands to
                        make of Russia which would have to be satisfied either by negotiation or as the result
                        of war. There was, however, no truth in the rumours that the Führer contemplated an
                        early attack on Russia.

                        (iv) That the British should evacuate Iraq.

                        (v) The peace agreement would have to contain a provision for the reciprocal
                        indemnification of British and German Nationals, whose property had been
                        expropriated as the result of war.

                        (vi) The proposal could only be considered on the understanding that it was
                        negotiated by Germany with an English Government other than the present British
                        Government. Mr. Churchill, who had planned the war since 1936, and his colleagues,
                        who had lent themselves to his war policy, were not persons with whom the Führer
                        would negotiate.

                        Hess concluded by emphasising that the Führer really wanted a permanent understanding with
                        Great Britain on a basis which preserved the British Empire intact. His own flight was
                        intended to give Great Britain a chance of opening conversations without loss of prestige. If
                        this chance were to be rejected it would be the Führer’s duty to destroy Great Britain utterly
                        and to keep the country after the war in a state of permanent subjection."

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                        • #13
                          ^ I don't dispute all those points or that they are on file, and there is nothing there which is controversial or surprising in any way. What is missing is the negotiations that I think must have taken place before his flight. It is simply not credible that Hess flew to Scotland on some impulse in the hope of speaking with Hamilton, who denied all knowledge, and Hess would not even have known if he was at that residence at the time. All we know about this is what we are told, there is no neutral report, everything is from British government who would have very good reasons to hide any under the table peace negotiations with Hitler, and to throw up their hands and say "Hey, what's all this with Hess, we know nothing, nothing, okaaaay....."

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Khepesh View Post
                            I don't dispute that as I simply do not know, but, that being the case then we all know the details about Hess? because all I see are still essentially rumors and conspircy theories. It is not reasonable for anybody to believe that Hess flew to Scotland to meet the Duke of Hamilton, who knew nothing about it, to talk about a peace plan in the hope the Hamilton would then argue a case with higher authority. Hess was not mad, as is often a slur used against him, and would not have gone on his mission without first knowing he would meet somebody of serious influence, maybe the very top, not some duke who, apparently never even knew Hess was coming. If the files are released, then why do we still not know the full details of the mission, just this extremely weak and unbelievable story that he was only going to meet the Duke of Hamilton. It seems very clear he was going to meet somebody else, and by prior arrangement by both parties, so who was that person.
                            One theory is that Hess actually made the Brits a very "good" offer, that is to withdraw from the conquered territories in Western Europe in return for peace and a free hand in the east (or even an alliance against the Soviets).

                            Given the situation Britain and Western Europe was in at the time it would be understandable to keep such an offer and it's refusal hidden from the public.
                            High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
                            Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                              One theory is that Hess actually made the Brits a very "good" offer, that is to withdraw from the conquered territories in Western Europe in return for peace and a free hand in the east (or even an alliance against the Soviets).

                              Given the situation Britain and Western Europe was in at the time it would be understandable to keep such an offer and it's refusal hidden from the public.
                              Trouble with this theory is the fact that Hess on at least two occasions signed the transcripts of his interrogations dealing with the peace plan as outlined in the British files as being correct, and at no time afterwards did he ever claim the plan as outlined in the files was incorrect.
                              There is also the small matter of the fact that there is no evidence that Hitler would have ever agreed to such a plan.

                              Comment

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