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Could the Axis Powers have won in the Mediterranean and North Africa?

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  • #76
    Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
    The modern Port of Bizerte is the same approximate size as Tripoli, Tunis and Benghazi. The anchorage in Lake Bizerte is not port facilities...
    http://www.populstat.info/Africa/libyac.htm
    http://www.populstat.info/Africa/tunisiac.htm

    Tunisia population (1940) - 2.84 million
    Libya population (1940) - .861

    Tunisia's port capacity will therefore be higher and its infrastructure more evolved in 1940.

    Light on the gas consumption, about right on the round trip guestimate. But remember the average German truck was only 2.5T capacity.
    http://www.autogallery.org.ru/m/mblg63.htm

    This truck could carry 2,800kg plus a max 2,000kg by trailer, with a gas consumption of 30ltr per 100km (road) or 45/100 (offroad), which is 7.8 mpg
    on road.

    [

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Glenn239 View Post
      http://www.populstat.info/Africa/libyac.htm
      http://www.populstat.info/Africa/tunisiac.htm

      Tunisia population (1940) - 2.84 million
      Libya population (1940) - .861

      Tunisia's port capacity will therefore be higher and its infrastructure more evolved in 1940.
      That does not follow at all.

      Using your logic any country with a higher population has more evolved infrastructure and higher port capacity.. Currently Bangladesh has a higher population than Canada. Would you therefore argue that its port capacity is higher and its infrastructure is more evolved than Canada's?

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      • #78

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        • #79
          Originally posted by CarpeDiem View Post
          That does not follow at all.

          Using your logic any country with a higher population has more evolved infrastructure and higher port capacity.. Currently Bangladesh has a higher population than Canada. Would you therefore argue that its port capacity is higher and its infrastructure is more evolved than Canada's?
          Have to spend some Rep around, but +1

          Susie
          Will no one tell me what she sings?--
          Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
          For old, unhappy, far-off things,
          And battles long ago:
          -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Glenn239 View Post
            Only a fantasist of the most determined sort could imagine the Gibraltar route would be usable should Axis airpower be established in Algeria.
            I don't deal in fantasy G2, ( or ifs ) the Axis never ever gained total airpower in that area or sea power either!! Yes it looked dodgy at times but they did not have the STAYING POWER which was the type of power that was needed! lcm1
            'By Horse by Tram'.


            I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
            " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

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            • #81
              Just imagine if we sent the pacific fleet into the med. for a couple of weeks. There would be nothing let of the Italian navy and their air force would be looking for holes to hide in. And if it happened by surprise the axis air force would be decimated.
              Credo quia absurdum.


              Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Glenn239 View Post
                http://www.populstat.info/Africa/libyac.htm
                http://www.populstat.info/Africa/tunisiac.htm

                Tunisia population (1940) - 2.84 million
                Libya population (1940) - .861

                Tunisia's port capacity will therefore be higher and its infrastructure more evolved in 1940.
                Only if it is conducting more trade.


                http://www.autogallery.org.ru/m/mblg63.htm

                This truck could carry 2,800kg plus a max 2,000kg by trailer, with a gas consumption of 30ltr per 100km (road) or 45/100 (offroad), which is 7.8 mpg
                on road.

                [
                It's a diesel - they get better fuel consumption than benzine engines.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by CarpeDiem View Post
                  That does not follow at all.

                  Using your logic...
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...al)_per_capita

                  In 1961 the GDP per capita in Tunisia was 402 vs. 295 in Libya. With the population of Tunisia being about 3.5 times that of Libya in 1940, its total economic output might have been 4-5 times that of Libya in 1940. Coupled to that the trade opportunities inherent in being part of the more advanced French Empire.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
                    I don't deal in fantasy... lcm1
                    If the Axis Powers had seized Tunis and Algeria, Gibraltar is shut down and the Atlantic route to Malta would be too dangerous.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
                      It's a diesel - they get better fuel consumption than benzine engines.
                      Are German diesel supply trucks made of a special form of anti-matter that only explodes if it comes in contact with Tunisian soil?

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                      • #86
                        I think Brod wonders if all the captuted French gear run on Diesel as well. Personally i have no clue.

                        posted from mobile
                        Last edited by Hanov; 25 Sep 14, 14:26.
                        One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Hanov View Post
                          I think Brod wonders if all the captuted French gear runs in Diesel as well. Personally i have no clue.
                          Broderick's figure of 2.5 mpg doesn't work for gas or diesel trucks. This is a gas powered lorry -

                          http://www.autogallery.org.ru/blitz36.htm

                          Cargo 3.3 tons
                          Fuel gas, 25ltr per 100km, on road = 9.39 miles per gallon.

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                          • #88
                            18 divisional equals each requiring 400 tons / day (combat, moderate intensity) = 7,200 tons/day.

                            18 divisional equiv. at 100 tons per day (inactive) = 1,800 tons.
                            Supply build-up (5850 tons 1800 tons inactive) = 4,055 tons day.

                            7,200 tons (combat consumption 5,855 (daily delivery) = 1,345 tons/day.
                            Required accumulation for 30 day offensive assuming 7,200 tons consumed and 5,855 tons replenished daily = 1,345 * 30 = 40,350 tons

                            Days to accumulate 40,350 tons in depot at 4,055 tons accumulated per day = 10 days.

                            Conclusion - the buildup to 18 divisional equivalents in Africa and the establishment of the truck supply line would take much longer than the buildup of the supplies necessary to execute an offensive.


                            Distance to a theoretical supply head 300 miles from Alexandria
                            Gas (7lbs per gallon) + 5lbs per gallon (all other supplies) = 12lbs /gallon for supplies consumed on supply route.
                            Rate of advance 20mph, but two trucks in North Africa for every 1 truck currently in transit.
                            Benghazi (2000 tons capacity/day) = 606 trucks. 800 miles round trip at 20mph = 1.7 days.
                            Tripoli (2000t/day) = 606 trucks. 1,800 miles round trip = 3.75 days
                            Tunis/Bizerte (6000t/day)= 1818 trucks 2,700 miles round trip = 5.6 days.
                            Total Trucks required 26,921
                            Benghazi: 606*1.7*2 = 2,060 trucks
                            Tripoli: 606*3.75*2 = 4,500 trucks
                            Tunisia: 1818*5.6*2= 20,361 trucks.
                            Supplies consumed/delivered = distance/ 9.39 mpg * 12lbs supply per gallon consumed = 5,855 tons/day/
                            Benghazi: 6,600lbs - 1022lbs = 5,578lbs delivered * 606 trucks = 1,690 tons/day
                            Tripoli: 6,600lbs 2300lbs = 4,300lbs delivered = 1,302 tons/day
                            Tunisia: 6,600lbs 3,450lbs = 3,150lbs delivered = 2,863 tons/day

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Glenn239 View Post
                              Are German diesel supply trucks made of a special form of anti-matter that only explodes if it comes in contact with Tunisian soil?
                              Question: How many diesel trucks did the Wehrmacht have?

                              Answer: Only a few.

                              Why? Because the diesel was generally reserved for the KM's submarines.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Glenn239 View Post
                                Broderick's figure of 2.5 mpg doesn't work for gas or diesel trucks. This is a gas powered lorry -

                                http://www.autogallery.org.ru/blitz36.htm

                                Cargo 3.3 tons
                                Fuel gas, 25ltr per 100km, on road = 9.39 miles per gallon.
                                I considered this. There is no data given as to whether this is a laden fuel consumption nor is any speed given (there is an optimal speed for best fuel efficiency and it varies from design to design).

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