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Could the Axis Powers have won in the Mediterranean and North Africa?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by tigersqn View Post
    Uhhh, the UN didn't exist during the time of the Vichy regime.



    Same as above.
    What Desiree said. Modern parlance is not the same as WW2 parlance.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
      So that's a definite maybe.



      The part of Poland on offer would be from the USSR, as they got the bit adjacent to Romania, Yugoslavia held few Romanians so that's buying trouble but the oil rights? Nazi Germany wanted autarky, not sharing. Sorry, Javaman, but that last idea has failed to acquire escape velocity. For it to happen in the Axis's favour, Germany has to be able to get sufficient force across the Med before the Red Army hits Mosul.
      I love that 'Definitely maybe' bw, lcm1
      'By Horse by Tram'.


      I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
      " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

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      • #48
        Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
        What Desiree said. Modern parlance is not the same as WW2 parlance.
        Fair enough, my apologies.
        Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

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        • #49
          Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
          There are two ports of a decent size in Tunisia, Tunis and Sousse. Bizerte would be similar to Tobruk. Until someone can provide historical data, I would suggest we're looking at similar carrying capacity to Tripoli and Bengazi, and therefore similar losses with distance travelled.
          Open Bizerte, Tunis and Tripoli in Google, side by side in Windows, at the 1km scale. The Tunisian ports dwarf Tripoli in size. Bizerte is huge.

          The distance by road between Tunis and Tripoli I googled is 480 miles. Assuming 10 miles per gallon for a 5 ton truck, that's about 100 gallons per round trip - let's round up to a full ton for supplies consumed per trip to maintain the supply line. Let's also assume the average rate of advance for any given truck is 6mph (includes maintainence). That's on trip per every six days per truck. So, at 5,000 tons per day and 5 tons per truck, that's 1,000 trucks times six days transit = 6,000 trucks = 4,000 tons per day delivered in Tripoli.

          As to why Germany went into NA - it's called backing an ally.
          The strategic intention was diversionary and defensive - to secure Italy's frontiers and divert the British in a secondary theatre. The global question is, what does NA accomplish for Germany in terms of grand strategy? The answer is that it boils down to the question of avoiding two front war - would a strong campaign in NA secure Germany from two front war, or provoke the USSR into giving it?

          The partition of Turkey, with the USSR getting the Straights, was the means to slam Germany's back door and prevent a two front war. If a German drive into Egypt destabilized the British position in the ME, and brought on a Russian occupation in the vicinity of the Persian Gulf that lead to war between Britain and the USSR, even better for Germany.
          Last edited by Glenn239; 20 Sep 14, 10:51.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by NoPref View Post

            Capturing Malta would have made Nazi supply lines more secure, but that does not guarantee that Rommel would have received a lot more supplies. Hitler and cronies have to decide to send supplies to N.A. in order for them to get there.
            They didn't need to take Malta - dissolving Vichy North Africa would make the supply lines more secure by way of Tunis, and the (roughly) 600,000 tons of shipping captured in southern France would give the shipping means to exploit the port capacity - both in terms of the shipping as well as dispatch port capacity (Marseilles).

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            • #51
              How about the elephant in the front room? Keep mining the Strait of Gibraltar like was done with the German Bight and the same with Port Alexandria? It would not be a war winning strategy, but could it provide much needed relief to the Axis in the Med.?

              Ed.
              The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by dutched View Post
                How about the elephant in the front room? Keep mining the Strait of Gibraltar like was done with the German Bight and the same with Port Alexandria? It would not be a war winning strategy, but could it provide much needed relief to the Axis in the Med.?

                Ed.
                Probably more difficult to achieve than the others mentioned.
                Currents in the straits of Gibraltar are VERY strong and very complex, with differing vectors for different depths.

                http://www.tidetech.org/news/NEW_Str...dal_model.html

                http://www.windtarifa.com/eng/anaveg...s/currents.htm

                In fact, German subs used to shut their engines down and allow the currents to carry them through the straits.

                http://formontana.net/uboats.html
                Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Glenn239 View Post
                  Open Bizerte, Tunis and Tripoli in Google, side by side in Windows, at the 1km scale. The Tunisian ports dwarf Tripoli in size. Bizerte is huge.
                  I did. I suggest you adjust you optical prescription as the port of Tripoli appears to be the size of Bizerte and Tunis combined. That Port de plaisance in Bizerte is a marina.
                  The distance by road between Tunis and Tripoli I googled is 480 miles. Assuming 10 miles per gallon for a 5 ton truck, that's about 100 gallons per round trip - let's round up to a full ton for supplies consumed per trip to maintain the supply line. Let's also assume the average rate of advance for any given truck is 6mph (includes maintainence). That's on trip per every six days per truck. So, at 5,000 tons per day and 5 tons per truck, that's 1,000 trucks times six days transit = 6,000 trucks = 4,000 tons per day delivered in Tripoli.
                  10 mpg out of a 5T truck? I budgeted on that from my '47 Buick car. Let's quarter it. Next, the average speed of a convoy - shall we agree at a very optimistic 30mph (unless you can suggest a better figure for a 1940s non-tarmac colonial road)? Which makes the best round trip 32 hours and probably much worse, factoring in food, rest and refueling. And that's only getting to Tripoli.
                  The strategic intention was diversionary and defensive - to secure Italy's frontiers and divert the British in a secondary theatre. The global question is, what does NA accomplish for Germany in terms of grand strategy? The answer is that it boils down to the question of avoiding two front war - would a strong campaign in NA secure Germany from two front war, or provoke the USSR into giving it?
                  What other theatres could the British fight in in 1941? In terms of grand strategy it sucks in British resources that may have been available to the USSR or a cross-channel attack as well as maintaining an ally (very important).
                  The partition of Turkey, with the USSR getting the Straights, was the means to slam Germany's back door and prevent a two front war. If a German drive into Egypt destabilized the British position in the ME, and brought on a Russian occupation in the vicinity of the Persian Gulf that lead to war between Britain and the USSR, even better for Germany.
                  If the USSR gets the Straits then Germany is in a poor position to exploit Turkish chrome and almost guarantees that Germany gets no petroleum. Nazi Germany wanted autarky, feuding neighbours it could take or leave. Btw, in 1941 Britain and the USSR jointly invaded Persia/Iran...

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                  • #54
                    People lets keep it simple. The only way the Axis could have won in the Med or in North Africa is if they were fighting each other..

                    Pruitt
                    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by WarMachine View Post
                      The perception I recieve of the Mediterranean and North African theatres is that they were for the Axis Powers seemingly impossible to win in or bring successfully to a conclution. This is particularly evident from the launching of Operation Barbarossa onwards.
                      The question I can't get past is WHY? There was nothing in North Africa for Germany. Hitler had grand dreams of reaching Iraq through through Palestine and Syria, but these were never practical and any possibility of Germany acquiring oil from the Iraqis evaporated in the spring of 1941. As I see it, the North African campaign was a sideshow started by the Italians but largely driven by British determination to be a nuisance wherever possible. In saying that, I do not mean to belittle the courage and dedication of the Allied troops that fought there --- I merely point to how unimportant the theatre was relative to Hitler's war aims.

                      That said, if Hitler had called off Barbarossa and gone after a southern thrust, assuming the logistics could be put in place, I'm sure the Afrika Corps coulod have trundled across Egypt and on to Baghdad without too much resistance. The British really had very little available that could be brought to bear.

                      However, Hitler was never going to call off Barbarossa. There was a clock running against him and any success became increasingly problematic the longer he delayed. The Red Army was rearming at a frantic pace and the Americans would sooner or later join in the war against Germany.

                      Regards
                      Scott Fraser
                      Last edited by Scott Fraser; 21 Sep 14, 03:15.
                      Ignorance is not the lack of knowledge. It is the refusal to learn.

                      A contentedly cantankerous old fart

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Glenn239 View Post
                        They didn't need to take Malta - dissolving Vichy North Africa would make the supply lines more secure by way of Tunis, and the (roughly) 600,000 tons of shipping captured in southern France would give the shipping means to exploit the port capacity - both in terms of the shipping as well as dispatch port capacity (Marseilles).
                        True.

                        I was trying to point out that creating a secure shipping lane did not mean that more stuff would actually get shipped.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by tigersqn View Post
                          Probably more difficult to achieve than the others mentioned.
                          Currents in the straits of Gibraltar are VERY strong and very complex, with differing vectors for different depths.

                          http://www.tidetech.org/news/NEW_Str...dal_model.html

                          http://www.windtarifa.com/eng/anaveg...s/currents.htm

                          In fact, German subs used to shut their engines down and allow the currents to carry them through the straits.

                          http://formontana.net/uboats.html
                          Currents were not the only reason they shut their engines down when going through the straits
                          'By Horse by Tram'.


                          I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                          " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
                            Currents were not the only reason they shut their engines down when going through the straits
                            True. See the final scene of "Das Boot."

                            Susie
                            Will no one tell me what she sings?--
                            Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
                            For old, unhappy, far-off things,
                            And battles long ago:
                            -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
                              Currents were not the only reason they shut their engines down when going through the straits
                              True, but I never said it was.
                              Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by tigersqn View Post
                                True, but I never said it was.
                                I know you didn't Tiger, but it was still worth pointing out even by you, something else too, they also did it by night! Must say one thing they knew which side of their bread was buttered!! lcm1
                                'By Horse by Tram'.


                                I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                                " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                                Comment

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