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China signs an agreement with Germany to produce 2,000 Hs

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  • China signs an agreement with Germany to produce 2,000 Hs

    Chiang & Hitler sign an agreement in 1937 to produce 2,000 Hs 123s (1,400 dive bombers & 600 fighters with reduced wing area). Germany will provide the know-how, quality control, tooling, motors and 3 blade, variable pitch propellers. China will receive the aluminum from the US and pay Germany with 500 dive bombers, 250 in 1930 and 250 in 1939.

    The planes are tough and reliable and pilots learn quickly to fly them.

    The fighters have 75% the chord and wing area, a lighter, more aerodynamic landing gear and two 13 mm MGs. They prove very useful to light up bombers with incendiary rounds and for strafing vehicles along the narrow, winding roads. Their AP rounds penetrate some Japanese tanks.

    the dive bombers are very accurate, have easy upkeep & prove very useful against ships (escorted by fighters), tanks, fuel & ammo depots, etc,

    Before war breaks out Germany has received 380 planes and the US threatens to stop supplying aluminum, unless deliveries to Germany stop, so China gets to keep 1,640 planes and begins producing spares for the engnes.

    Germany benefits greatly from the 380 reliable planbes with fast turn around during the invasions of Poland, Holland, Belgium, France, Greece, etc, They help considerably in Dunkirk and then in Africa, where the radial engines are less vulnerable to small arms fire than the Stuka's water cooled engine and the fast turn around and ability to operate from makeshift bases is invaluable for Rommel.

    They also prove invaluable during Barbarossa, where they are used to sink the fleets of the Baltic and Black Sea fleets and to support Kleist against the hundreds of KV-1s and T-34s in his front in the first week of the operation.

  • #2
    And where did the skilled labor and craftsmen suddenly come from? Time does not exist in a vacuum. Warlords, communists, famine, government ineptitude, and the ever friendly Japanese would vanish magically.
    Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

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    BoRG

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    • #3
      China couldn't produce 20 of those planes, much less 2000, and as noted, the infrastructure to maintain and fly them wouldn't be there. Nor is Hitler likely to farm out construction of aircraft to the enemy of his ally and racial inferior, nor would he want outsiders knowing about his rearmament plans.

      Germany would see little benefit. Those planes were obsolete by 1940. They would add a tiny margin of air power to the East Front, but its debatable whether their small bomb load would make risking 380 pilots a viable benefit. The West & North Africa fronts are out of the question.

      Invalid on all levels.
      Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Salinator View Post
        And where did the skilled labor and craftsmen suddenly come from? Time does not exist in a vacuum. Warlords, communists, famine, government ineptitude, and the ever friendly Japanese would vanish magically.
        Anyone who on a neighbouring thread can seriously suggest that the Royal Navy could have increased the capacity of their aircraft carriers in 1942 by taking the wings off their aircraft will not be fazed by such minor inconveniences.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
          China couldn't produce 20 of those planes, much less 2000, and as noted, the infrastructure to maintain and fly them wouldn't be there. Nor is Hitler likely to farm out construction of aircraft to the enemy of his ally and racial inferior, nor would he want outsiders knowing about his rearmament plans.

          Germany would see little benefit. Those planes were obsolete by 1940. They would add a tiny margin of air power to the East Front, but its debatable whether their small bomb load would make risking 380 pilots a viable benefit. The West & North Africa fronts are out of the question.

          Invalid on all levels.
          You are right on all counts, but please note that the first sentence above doesn't catch the essence of the proposal. It's true China can't produce those 20 aircraft because it lacks the factories and skilled personnel; but the proposal is essentiallythat Germany produces the aircraft - just in China.
          The Germans are providing the factories, and shipping them over. They're building directly in Germany the engines and vital parts, and, again, shipping them over. They are providing the key personnel, and, again, sending them over. And these engineers and technicians will start by training the workers, evidently, while they are building the factories.
          Leaving aside the diplomatic and political aspects (including that of making long-term deals with such a stable and secure government as the Chinese one in 1937), it really makes great sense from the economic POV.

          In short, it's the same scheme according to which the USA built up from scrap aircraft factories in Thailand for WWII. What, they didn't?
          Michele

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          • #6
            Germany developed the Chinese RR system and a military industry.
            The Chinese invented industry and were melting steel over a mellenium before Europeans did. They invented standardized mass production of chrome plated bronze bolt tips for crossbows when Europeans were making by hand arrow tips, each one a little different from the other.
            They invented paper, printing, gunpowder, advanced estrategy, etc,
            Anybody who can build without much foreign help the Burma road by hand in a fraction of the time westerners estimated construction using modern equipment can build 2,000 planes with German help, tooling and machinery.
            It is much easier for China to produce primitive planes with German and American help than for Poland or Romania to design and produce fighters, which they did.

            When one compares the power, weight, wing area, aluminum Vs. linen and single struts, vs strust and wires of the Hs 123, Galdiator and CR.42 one would conclude that the Hs 123 should have been faster.
            The only explanation I can offer is that the Hs 123 was slower because the very low aspect ratio of the stubby lower wing results in high wingtip drag. The higher aspect ratio of the shorter chord version should reduce wingtip drag considerably (as well as sruface drag and weight).
            Even the fighter version would make an excellent dive bomber with four 25 kg or two 50 kg bombs.

            China could have bought radios and .50 cal MGs from the US.

            Germany did develop the military industry, provide the AT cannon that knocked out hundreds of Japanese tanks, plus 105 mm field cannon, 150 mm howitzers, etc, so providing the tooling for an obsolete plane, which will not be produced after 1938 makes a lot more sense than destroying it in 1940.

            Chenault could have certainly used well hundreds of tough, easy maintenance fighters that use much less fuel than a P-40 to support the huge Chinese army in Shanghai, Wuhan, Changsha, etc,
            Last edited by Draco; 01 Sep 14, 09:45.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Draco View Post
              Germany developed the Chinese RR system and a military industry.
              The Chinese invented industry and were melting steel over a mellenium before Europeans did. They invented standardized mass production of chrome plated bronze bolt tips for crossbows when Europeans were making by hand arrow tips, each one a little different from the other.
              They invented paper, printing, gunpowder, advanced estrategy, etc,
              Sure, and we owe a lot to the Arab civilization too, they invented universities and the number zero and algebra and damascus steel and whatnot.
              And that's why, when the British needed aircraft in Egypt, they set up a factory from scratch in Jordan. Local goat herders were the ideal manpower because their ancestors had invented those nifty blades.
              Michele

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Michele View Post
                Sure, and we owe a lot to the Arab civilization too, they invented universities and the number zero and algebra and damascus steel and whatnot.
                And that's why, when the British needed aircraft in Egypt, they set up a factory from scratch in Jordan. Local goat herders were the ideal manpower because their ancestors had invented those nifty blades.
                Please check out military production of German armament in China.

                Stalin was producing millions of PPSh-40 sub MGs, but he did use Iran to produce quite a few more.

                Whence came the qualified Italian workers who built far more planes than Russia did in WW I or the Spanish workers who built Hispano-Suiza engines for the French and British in WW I or the Polish or Romanian workers who built good planes in WW II? How skilled were the housewives who built B-29s and P51s?

                The zero and the arabic numbers came from India.

                Not withstanding European chauvinism, I never understood why the British did not use the most skilled hand labor to mass produce some of the fuselage and wing parts of the Spitfire which required a lot of manhours in India starting in 1938. And thousands of Indian pilots.

                I find it highly ironic that in a mountanous country the small and young Korean train industry is producing much faster and larger trains than the TGV with its long tradition or that the Japanese were producing better planes and carriers than the British a few years after discovering Industry or that the Japanese are making their most expensive hybrids in China.

                It is also interesting that the peasant nation's general Xue was using more strategy than Monty, Patton or any of the famous allied clowns (except O'Connor). The peasant nation also used lots of sub MGs, while the advanced Japanese didn't.
                Last edited by Draco; 01 Sep 14, 10:23.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Doveton Sturdee View Post
                  Anyone who on a neighbouring thread can seriously suggest that the Royal Navy could have increased the capacity of their aircraft carriers in 1942 by taking the wings off their aircraft will not be fazed by such minor inconveniences.
                  "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

                  "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

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                  • #10
                    Hi

                    Here we are once again and just reaching double figures in terms of posts, and the OP has introduced several new sub WI's.

                    These sub WI's covering minor issues such as Arab civilization, British Empire policy concerning India plus issues such as:- modern Korean abilities in building trains, the manufacturing capabilities of no fewer than 6 industrial nations and finally the old ever present chestnut of western Allied incompetence when it came to strategy, with the obvious exception of O'Connor.

                    Regards
                    "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

                    "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

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                    • #11
                      In the history of rapid development, it is also interesting how fast the illiterate goat and camel herders of Mahoma became excellent warriors and took over a large part of the world and developed an advanced civilization. The same goes for Genghis Khan, the Visigods in North Africa, etc, It is incredible what good leadership can do.

                      One of the characteristics of mass production is that a person performs a single task (which can be learnt in a short time) over and over again during the day. A doctors degree or even literacy is not required, as long as there is good quality control.

                      Sun Tsu proved to the king that he could make an excellent army using only court women. He succeeded after he killed the first woman that he named the officer when she laughed at an order. The following woman took it more seriously and within a short time the court women were well trained into an impressive army. The same goes for industry.

                      Stalin turned peasants (more ignorant than the Chinese) into factory workers in short order (despite wasting a lot of time teaching them comunism also and sending millions to die in the Gulags).

                      Under Spanish guidance, the Filipinos built larger ships than the British built to transport Peruvian and Mexican silver to the Philippines and gold, spices, silk, china, etc, to Mexico for centuries. the British intercepted only one of those ships in centuries and it was enough to make Drake and Elizabeth rich.
                      Last edited by Draco; 01 Sep 14, 11:46.

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                      • #12
                        Firstly, if you're going to have someone make planes for you, why not pick one that's not going to be obsolete by the time the planes hit the runway? Like ME110s.

                        Second, if you're going to have a "neutral" country produce them for you, why not get a country closer to home? Like say Turkey or Spain.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by phil74501 View Post
                          Firstly, if you're going to have someone make planes for you, why not pick one that's not going to be obsolete by the time the planes hit the runway? Like ME110s.

                          Second, if you're going to have a "neutral" country produce them for you, why not get a country closer to home? Like say Turkey or Spain.
                          May I one-up your good suggestions? Third, if you are going to have a neutral producing aircraft for you, why don't you pick such a country that already has a damn aircraft industry in place and has been actually building damn biplane aluminium-fuselage aircraft - Sweden?

                          And that is damn next door (yes, Sweden again), because a neutral shipping military stuff to combatants during a war is going to be interfered with by the damn Royal Navy?

                          Just some good sense stuff, you know.

                          Plus the Swedes have among their ancestors the inventors of the longship. So they're qualified.
                          Michele

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by phil74501 View Post
                            Firstly, if you're going to have someone make planes for you, why not pick one that's not going to be obsolete by the time the planes hit the runway? Like ME110s.

                            Second, if you're going to have a "neutral" country produce them for you, why not get a country closer to home? Like say Turkey or Spain.
                            In a sense, the Bf 110 was more obsolete than the Hs 123, far more complicated and expensive, much more difficult to maintain, much less maneuverable and much more difficult to learn to fly and Germany plans to continue producing it. It's the last thing China can afford or use.

                            The Hs 123 was ideal for mass production, primitive airfields. limited maintenance (radial engine) and inexperienced pilots. The fact that with narrower wings, the fuselage and engine can produce a cheap, decent fighter is a big plus.

                            China is not a neutral country. The Soviets have occupied Xinjiang and fought Chiang's troops, Japan has occupied Shanghai, Nanking, etc, and the Communists are causing a lot of trouble. China desperately needs a lot of cheap planes, has a huge population and has access to American help. If Hitler does not help Chiang, he will make a pact with Stalin (which he actually made) in order to secure planes, etc, China has the largest population in the world, is adjacent to the USSR and is fighting communists. Most importantly, if China is strong and Japan suffers heavy losses for small gains, Japan (and China) will be more likely to attack a beleaguered USSR when Germany invades it. Turkey has less industry than China and little use for large numbers of planes and Spain is in a civil war, does not need huge numbers of planes, has no border with the USSR, is less reliable than China and Franco won't get any help from Roosevelt, who hates him.

                            Sweden has fewer people than a Chinese city, high wages and profits and does not need thousands of planes, so Germany will have to buy the planes, instead of paying with engines and props for them. Moreover, Sweden will not fight the USSR and Germany would benefit greatly from invading Sweden (simultaneously with Denmark, Norway, Lithuania, Holland, Belgium, Switzerland, etc,) in 1939 to acquire iron ore, Bofors, etc, which would be more difficult if it has hundreds of planes.

                            Germany will start the war, so it can safely transport so many planes from China as it wants before the war begins.
                            Last edited by Draco; 01 Sep 14, 12:40.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Michele View Post
                              May I one-up your good suggestions? Third, if you are going to have a neutral producing aircraft for you, why don't you pick such a country that already has a damn aircraft industry in place and has been actually building damn biplane aluminium-fuselage aircraft - Sweden?

                              And that is damn next door (yes, Sweden again), because a neutral shipping military stuff to combatants during a war is going to be interfered with by the damn Royal Navy?

                              Just some good sense stuff, you know.

                              Plus the Swedes have among their ancestors the inventors of the longship. So they're qualified.
                              Hadn't thought about Sweden. My point was, if you're going to have neutrals build planes for you, why not get somewhere closer to home? If China builds them, you either have to fly them almost half-way around the world, across several countries, some of whom may not be the friendliest. Or, ship them back, which, as you mentioned, the RN is going to try and sink every single one of them. With the ships having to come either through the Suez Canal, or around South Africa, will make the RN's job much easier. Unless you plan on shipping them around South America or through the Panama Canal.

                              And even if you get 2,000 new planes, of whatever type, where is Germany going to get 2,000 additional pilots from? Pilots don't grow on trees ya know. And where are you going to get the fuel for that additional 2,000 planes?

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