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  • #16
    Originally posted by johns624 View Post
    A gun carriage with caisson being pulled through rough terrain by a tracked vehicle? I don't think that that would work very well.
    Much better than the poor crew or a horse hauling a doornocker and caisson several miles per day. Such an arragement would have provided at least some artillery and infantry for Manstein on his way to Leningrad and perhaps prevented his superiors from ordering him to waste an invaluable week waiting for horse drawn artillery and infantry on foot to catch up.
    While the 37 mm is an AT weapon and little use against troops or fortifications, a 47 mm HE shell is also useful against troops and at a longer range. So the captured Soviet guns and tanks, with good German AT shells and HE shells would have been more useful.
    Last edited by Draco; 24 Aug 14, 19:07.

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    • #17
      What would happen to the AT guns and crews if their assault gun was damaged or destroyed in battle? A whole lot of crews would be stranded, especially on the defensive. The whole time that they're unhooking, setting up the AT gun, the assault gun is useless to the battle. They couldn't just drop it in the middle of a field, it would have to be concealed somewhere.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by johns624 View Post
        What would happen to the AT guns and crews if their assault gun was damaged or destroyed in battle? A whole lot of crews would be stranded, especially on the defensive. The whole time that they're unhooking, setting up the AT gun, the assault gun is useless to the battle. They couldn't just drop it in the middle of a field, it would have to be concealed somewhere.
        This the problem McNair's towed AT guns component of the Tank Destroyers found.

        It's hard to use towed AT guns offensively without high casualties

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Draco View Post
          Much better than the poor crew or a horse hauling a doornocker and caisson several miles per day. Such an arragement would have provided at least some artillery and infantry for Manstein on his way to Leningrad and perhaps prevented his superiors from ordering him to waste an invaluable week waiting for horse drawn artillery and infantry on foot to catch up.
          While the 37 mm is an AT weapon and little use against troops or fortifications, a 47 mm HE shell is also useful against troops and at a longer range. So the captured Soviet guns and tanks, with good German AT shells and HE shells would have been more useful.
          Except that the two units in any German field formation that would be motorized almost always are antitank guns and signals equipment. The Wehrmacht fully understood that for antitank guns to be effective they needed to be as mobile as possible so they were almost always tractor / truck drawn.

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          • #20
            A tractor is much too powerful for a 37 mm gun, and they did not have enough tractors and trucks even for the invaluable 88 mm and 105 mm guns and their ammo, hundreds of which were horse drawn. Much less for the numerous 37 mm (or in this case captured 47 mm).

            What do they do if the STUG is knocked out?
            It is much less likely to be knocked out than a horse or truck, but if it is the men can use the STUG temporarely for cover, while another vehicle comes by, whereas they are completely vulnerable if their truck or horse is destroyed.

            A STUG is already advancing burning a lot of fuel to move over 23 tons and towing a gun and caisson hardly increase fuel consumption and is less vulnerable than a truck or tractor and no additional driver is needed.

            The Germans didn't even need to make special 47 mm AT shells, only the casings and use their 37 mm shell on a bakelite sabot. The 37 mm shell would reach much greater speed with the sabot in the 47 mm gun. The greater speed increases range, produces a flatter trajectory and enhances armor penetration.
            Last edited by Draco; 24 Aug 14, 22:25.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Draco View Post
              A tractor is much too powerful for a 37 mm gun, and they did not have enough tractors and trucks even for the invaluable 88 mm and 105 mm guns and their ammo, hundreds of which were horse drawn. Much less for the numerous 37 mm (or in this case captured 47 mm).
              .
              Hundreds of horse drawn 88 mm guns in the German army?

              I'm sure you have a source for this interesting piece of information.

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              • #22
                88 mm in the LW which had priority over the WM (if they didn't have enough truck, much less the WM), 105 mm in the WM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Draco View Post
                  88 mm in the LW which had priority over the WM (if they didn't have enough truck, much less the WM), 105 mm in the WM.
                  That's not an answer or a source.

                  Here's how this is going to work.

                  You made a claim that hundreds of 88 mm in the German army were horse drawn. Now you've been warned several times by forum staff not to make stuff up and to back up your claims with sources when requested.

                  So you can either provide a source for your claim, retract your statement or deal with the consequences of deliberately publishing false information.

                  This is not going to go away.

                  So I ask again:
                  What is your source for the interesting piece of information that hundreds of 88mm guns were horse drawn in the German army?
                  Last edited by CarpeDiem; 25 Aug 14, 10:19.

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                  • #24
                    I think the 88 was too heavy to be horse drawn. Certainly none of them were produced with wheels / trailers etc., that were designed for it. All mobile 88 (and not all were mobile, many were intended for static use in Germany).

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by CarpeDiem View Post
                      That's not an answer or a source.

                      Here's how this is going to work.

                      You made a claim that hundreds of 88 mm in the German army were horse drawn. Now you've been warned several times by forum staff not to make stuff up and to back up your claims with sources when requested.

                      So you can either provide a source for your claim, retract your statement or deal with the consequences of deliberately publishing false information.

                      This is not going to go away.

                      So I ask again:
                      What is your source for the interesting piece of information that hundreds of 88mm guns were horse drawn in the German army?
                      I did not claim 88 mm army guns, I said the Germans did not have enough tractors and trucks even for such invaluable and scarce guns, which saved the army´s Panzers from superior tanks immune to 37 mm doorknockers in France and in the USSR (KV-1 and T-34).

                      Much heavier guns than the relatively light 88 mm were horse drawn, how do think they moved all the 6" cannon from the RR in WW I?, they just used more horses.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Draco View Post
                        88 mm in the LW which had priority over the WM (if they didn't have enough truck, much less the WM), 105 mm in the WM.
                        Hi Draco

                        The Wehrmacht is made up of the Heer, Luftwaffe (LW) and Kriegsmarine (KM).
                        So you post should read 'the LW which had priority over the Heer (Army) etc'

                        Regards
                        "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

                        "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Draco View Post
                          I did not claim 88 mm army guns, I said the Germans did not have enough tractors and trucks even for such invaluable and scarce guns, which saved the army´s Panzers from superior tanks immune to 37 mm doorknockers in France and in the USSR (KV-1 and T-34).

                          Much heavier guns than the relatively light 88 mm were horse drawn, how do think they moved all the 6" cannon from the RR in WW I?, they just used more horses.
                          Here's a reminder of what you claim with the part I questioned highlighted:

                          Originally posted by Draco View Post
                          A tractor is much too powerful for a 37 mm gun, and they did not have enough tractors and trucks even for the invaluable 88 mm and 105 mm guns and their ammo, hundreds of which were horse drawn. Much less for the numerous 37 mm (or in this case captured 47 mm).
                          Now if you didn't mean army, what branch did you mean? LW? So you'd have a source for this claim then?
                          So far no source has been provided that shows that 'hundreds' of 88 mm guns were horse drawn in any branch of the German armed forces (Heer, LW or KM). Therefore I am forced to conclude this is yet another case of making things up in an attempt to muddy the argument.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Draco View Post
                            I did not claim 88 mm army guns, I said the Germans did not have enough tractors and trucks even for such invaluable and scarce guns, which saved the army´s Panzers from superior tanks immune to 37 mm doorknockers in France and in the USSR (KV-1 and T-34).
                            The number of 88mm Flak 18, 36, or 41 in Heer service is virtually nill. Almost all Flak 88 belonged to the Luftwaffe. And, the 88 didn't "save the army's Panzers from superior tanks." If anything the Heer had adequate equipment to deal with Russian tanks.
                            In the majority when Germany invaded were older vehicles like the BT 7, and T 26. Up to the beginning of 1943 most Soviet tank brigades were 50%+ T 60 or T 70 while the KV 1 all but disappeared from service at the same time.
                            Also, starting with the mobile divisions and then working its way down to infantry formations the 50/60 PAK was becoming available even in mid 1941. Most mobile and first line divisions had 3 to 9 minimally in service.
                            However, none of that changes that the Heer tried very, very hard to ensure that panzerjäger formations were fully motorized.


                            Much heavier guns than the relatively light 88 mm were horse drawn, how do think they moved all the 6" cannon from the RR in WW I?, they just used more horses.
                            No, heavier guns weren't. What happened or was done in World War I is just as irrelevant as what they did in the Napoleonic Wars.

                            In World War 2 heavier guns like the 88 (weighing in at over 6 tons with trailer compared to about 2 to 2.5 tons for a 10.5cm howitzer) were vehicle towed. It isn't what might have been tried here but what the normal process was that counts.
                            The Germans used a motorized vehicle to tow 8.8cm Flak guns, not horses.

                            If you want to argue otherwise you need to provide good sources that demonstrate that, and showing a singular case where it was done out of expediency doesn't count. Show that the Germans regularly hauled heavy artillery and heavy flak like the 8.8cm gun using horses providing valid sources to back up your claim.
                            Otherwise, you are just talking smack.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                              The number of 88mm Flak 18, 36, or 41 in Heer service is virtually nill. Almost all Flak 88 belonged to the Luftwaffe. And, the 88 didn't "save the army's Panzers from superior tanks." If anything the Heer had adequate equipment to deal with Russian tanks.
                              In the majority when Germany invaded were older vehicles like the BT 7, and T 26. Up to the beginning of 1943 most Soviet tank brigades were 50%+ T 60 or T 70 while the KV 1 all but disappeared from service at the same time.
                              Also, starting with the mobile divisions and then working its way down to infantry formations the 50/60 PAK was becoming available even in mid 1941. Most mobile and first line divisions had 3 to 9 minimally in service.
                              However, none of that changes that the Heer tried very, very hard to ensure that panzerjäger formations were fully motorized.

                              Horses were so important to the Germans and Soviets, that when Germany captured 10 million horses in the occupied area the Germans were thrilled and Soviets experienced a serious shortage and had to use camels for a while.




                              No, heavier guns weren't. What happened or was done in World War I is just as irrelevant as what they did in the Napoleonic Wars.

                              In World War 2 heavier guns like the 88 (weighing in at over 6 tons with trailer compared to about 2 to 2.5 tons for a 10.5cm howitzer) were vehicle towed. It isn't what might have been tried here but what the normal process was that counts.
                              The Germans used a motorized vehicle to tow 8.8cm Flak guns, not horses.

                              If you want to argue otherwise you need to provide good sources that demonstrate that, and showing a singular case where it was done out of expediency doesn't count. Show that the Germans regularly hauled heavy artillery and heavy flak like the 8.8cm gun using horses providing valid sources to back up your claim.
                              Otherwise, you are just talking smack.
                              Not really, what happened in WW II was largely dependent on and similar to what happened in WW I and the Napoleonic wars, by far most of the artillery and its ammunition (and the water and food for the horses and their handlers) were pulled the same way in Poland, France and the USSR in WW II as in WW I. However, distances in the USSR were much greater, so that most of the artillery remained far behind the rapidly advancing front most of the time n Barbarossa. At least Napoleon's cannon and their ammo were far more mobile than the WM's, so many fewer handlers, food, etc, were wasted on horses than in Barbarossa and Napoleon's horses advanced faster and lived a few days longer than the over loaded German horses.

                              Kleist faced hundreds of T-34s and KV-1 on the first week, which is why he took the heaviest tank losses (1/4 of his tanks).

                              Sorry about mentioning a Soviet 47 mm AT gun, it was actually 45 mm. Not only was the German 37 mm small, it was also slow at 2,500 fps. The same shell fired on a sabot in a 45 mm gun would have approached 2,800 fps, approaching the speed of the 88 mm.
                              The tank cartridge had an electrical fuze, so it was not compatible with the AT gun.

                              Horses were so important to both Germans and Soviets, that when the Germans captured 10 million horses in the occupied Soviet territories they were thrilled and the Soviets experienced a serious shortage and had to use camels for a while.
                              Last edited by Draco; 25 Aug 14, 14:24.

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                              • #30
                                The preferred tow vehicle for the 3.7cm PaK 36 was the Sdkfz 10 half track (tractor).

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