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US drops atomic bomb on Berlin . .. would the US have done it

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  • #31
    Originally posted by OpanaPointer View Post
    There were no craters at the Japanese cities, the bombs were detonated too high for that. Unless they could do a pinpoint drop I don't think the bunker would have been hurt. A Grand Slam would have been more to the point.
    The Berlin bunker wasn't quite to sub pen levels, some earth and then 10 foot concrete ceiling

    Conventional explosives, even 4000 pound cookies, only do a small fraction of a 15 kt device of the amount of overpressure, and the duration of the event.

    the other difference is conventional explosives don't have a negative phase of a blast wave when a partial vacuum is created

    at 750 foot detonation altitude, there is a 500 foot radius , 200 psi blast wave, and 850 foot 100 psi blast wave

    This is a Atlas F silo door rated at 100 psi


    Fuhrerbunker didn't have doors like that

    From 30,000 feet, Enola Gay missed the target point by only 550 feet.

    any detonation lower than 750 feetand you get fallout, as the fireball will touch

    Even if the bunker holds it's still within the 5000 REM radiation radius.
    That's almost 3000 feet. They will be shielded from most of the gamma radiation, but not the neutron pulse

    All low yield nuclear weapons are primarily radiation weapons, from yields from less than 1kt up to about 10 kt in yield, all have prompt neutron radiation as their most lethal component, after which point the lethal blast and thermal effects begins to exceed the lethal ionizing radiation radius.
    Neutron Bombs have 40% Radiation output, vs 5% for the above fission bombs, with less blast and thermal effects.


    Yes, 15kt devices aren't really 'city killers' even though the two dropped did exactly that on the lightly built Japanese cities.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Marathag View Post
      Even if the bunker holds it's still within the 5000 REM radiation radius.
      That's almost 3000 feet. They will be shielded from most of the gamma radiation, but not the neutron pulse

      All low yield nuclear weapons are primarily radiation weapons, from yields from less than 1kt up to about 10 kt in yield, all have prompt neutron radiation as their most lethal component, after which point the lethal blast and thermal effects begins to exceed the lethal ionizing radiation radius.
      Neutron Bombs have 40% Radiation output, vs 5% for the above fission bombs, with less blast and thermal effects.


      Yes, 15kt devices aren't really 'city killers' even though the two dropped did exactly that on the lightly built Japanese cities.
      The radiation through 10 or so feet of moist soil and then the concrete would be such that those on the far side would be looking at maybe 50 rem at most and more likely in the neighborhood of 10 to 20. That's easily survivable.
      Neutron doesn't penetrate any better or worse than gamma. It simply does more damage per unit (about 10 times) as gamma does. But, neutron won't penetrate as well as gamma does through that soil and concrete. It will interact with the atoms and molecules making it up and largely, if not completely, be attenuated.

      I'd say the biggest threat is the vacuum and over pressure from the blast. If the ventilation for the bunker wasn't secured and dampers closed to prevent blast entry or the following vacuum (under pressure) between the two they'd likely kill everyone in it simply by a combination of high pressure then sucking the air out of the bunker.

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      • #33
        Would have the US used the A-bomb against German? Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes...much discussion in recent years that the bomb was used over Japan for racial reasons, ignoring the fact the bomb was not ready in May 1945....however, if it had been in May 1944 I think that Berlin would still be glowing.
        A while back there was an article in MHQ about a group of Commonwealth POW's held in Hiroshima, close to ground zero (1500 yards away if I remember correctly,) their experience during the bombing and their later lives afterwards. Few, if any had any reported health problems related to the bomb.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Jon Jordan View Post
          Absolutely, yes. The assumption behind the "no" answer - "We would not have bombed Berlin because Germans are whiter than Japanese" - has no credible historical support.
          Neither does 80% of what is called "news" these days, but that never stops the flood of bile that our civilization is drowning in.

          Originally posted by LtCol View Post
          Would have the US used the A-bomb against German? Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes...much discussion in recent years that the bomb was used over Japan for racial reasons, ignoring the fact the bomb was not ready in May 1945....however, if it had been in May 1944 I think that Berlin would still be glowing.
          A while back there was an article in MHQ about a group of Commonwealth POW's held in Hiroshima, close to ground zero (1500 yards away if I remember correctly,) their experience during the bombing and their later lives afterwards. Few, if any had any reported health problems related to the bomb.
          Perhaps the health issues related to anything nuclear has been over-exaggerated in order to terrorize the people of the world, sort of the ultimate fail-safe vs any and all use of that technology.
          The scientific community has admitted that Nuclear Winter was a hoax.

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          • #35
            People still live in both cities.
            Hyperwar: World War II on the World Wide Web
            Hyperwar, Whats New
            World War II Resources
            The best place in the world to "work".

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            • #36
              The only reason I could see it not being used on Berlin is that the city was heavily damaged and the US wanted a clear damage assessment of what the bomb could do. That only means they would have chosen a different city to nuke, not that they wouldn't have nuked one.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by OpanaPointer View Post
                People still live in both cities.
                Well aware of that, i put in the glowing for effect. LOL

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
                  The scientific community has admitted that Nuclear Winter was a hoax.
                  Those lying !
                  Elsa: [reading Jacob's palm] "See. According to this, you're already dead."[laughs]
                  Army Officer: "Mr. Singer. What an appropriate name for a man who can't shut up."
                  "Jacob's Ladder"

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                  • #39
                    From a friend in the 202 area code:

                    FYI:

                    Subject: The Secret History of the Atom Bomb Is Now Available in Full Online. It even has a US Navy section.
                    URL: https://www.osti.gov/opennet/manhattan_district.jsp

                    "General Leslie Groves, head of the Manhattan Engineer District, in late
                    1944 commissioned a multi-volume history of the Manhattan Project called the Manhattan District History. Prepared by multiple authors under the general editorship of Gavin Hadden, a longtime civil employee of the Army Corps of Engineers, the classified history was "intended to describe, in simple terms, easily understood by the average reader, just what the Manhattan District did, and how, when, and where." The volumes record the Manhattan Project's activities and achievements in research, design, construction, operation, and administration, assembling a vast amount of information in a systematic, readily available form. The Manhattan District History contains extensive annotations, statistical tables, charts, engineering drawings, maps, photographs, and detailed indices. Only a handful of copies of the history were prepared. The Department of Energy's Office of History and Heritage Resources is custodian of one of these copies.

                    The history is arranged in thirty-six volumes grouped in eight books. Some of the volumes were further divided into stand-alone chapters. Several of the volumes and stand-alone chapters were never security classified. Many of the volumes and chapters were declassified at various times and were available to the public on microfilm. Parts of approximately a third of the volumes remain classified.

                    The Office of Classification and the Office of History and Heritage Resources, in collaboration with the Department's Office of Science and Technical Information, have made the full-text of the entire thirty-six volume Manhattan District History available on this OpenNet website.
                    Unclassified and declassified volumes have been scanned and posted.
                    Classified volumes were declassified in full or with redactions, i.e., still classified terms, phrases, sentences, and paragraphs were removed and the remaining unclassified parts made available to the public. All volumes have been posted."
                    Hyperwar: World War II on the World Wide Web
                    Hyperwar, Whats New
                    World War II Resources
                    The best place in the world to "work".

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                    • #40
                      Wow! Nice one OP.
                      Elsa: [reading Jacob's palm] "See. According to this, you're already dead."[laughs]
                      Army Officer: "Mr. Singer. What an appropriate name for a man who can't shut up."
                      "Jacob's Ladder"

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by TDurden View Post
                        Wow! Nice one OP.
                        Nice to know my tax dollars still get me a few heads-up emails.


                        That is, if I paid taxes...
                        Hyperwar: World War II on the World Wide Web
                        Hyperwar, Whats New
                        World War II Resources
                        The best place in the world to "work".

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                          The only reason I could see it not being used on Berlin is that the city was heavily damaged and the US wanted a clear damage assessment of what the bomb could do. That only means they would have chosen a different city to nuke, not that they wouldn't have nuked one.
                          The interesting corollary is that Hitler would live on, and as long as he lives there's no German surrender; therefore, if Germany is still in the war, it takes more than two nukes to end it in Europe.
                          Michele

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Michele View Post
                            The interesting corollary is that Hitler would live on, and as long as he lives there's no German surrender; therefore, if Germany is still in the war, it takes more than two nukes to end it in Europe.
                            I think there would have been surrenders on both fronts, probably separate and perhaps piecemeal, but the Reich was doomed and wouldn't have lived on much past May 1st.
                            Hyperwar: World War II on the World Wide Web
                            Hyperwar, Whats New
                            World War II Resources
                            The best place in the world to "work".

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by OpanaPointer View Post
                              I think there would have been surrenders on both fronts, probably separate and perhaps piecemeal, but the Reich was doomed and wouldn't have lived on much past May 1st.
                              Obviously it depends on what we modify and shift in such an alternate-history scenario. Do we make it so the Reich resists until the historical date of readiness of the nukes? In that case, the Reich has to be stronger and it will still be around by the summer of 1945.
                              But we can also move around the date of readiness of the nukes, and if we content ourselves with just some 4 months earlier, the Reich, just by conventional warfare, already is on its last legs, and adding the nukes is nearly overkill. It seems you go for the latter, and if that is the case, then it's very likely you are right.
                              Michele

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