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Could the Germans have won WW2 without Hitler?

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  • Could the Germans have won WW2 without Hitler?

    I saw a documentary where the allies sent snipers to assassinate Hitler but decided against it at the last minute because they realised that Hitler was a fool and was the allies greatest asset in Germany.
    If they did assassinate Hitler, and the German army decides to keep fighting, could they have won?
    This is pre d-day by the way.
    Obviously in reality they would negotiate a peace with the allies the turn their full attention to Russia but lets pretend that they are greedy enough to want to keep Europe for them selves and stay at war with Britain/Us etc.

  • #2
    Originally posted by hayden1177 View Post
    If they did assassinate Hitler, and the German army decides to keep fighting, could they have won?
    This is pre d-day by the way.
    Obviously in reality they would negotiate a peace with the allies the turn their full attention to Russia but lets pretend that they are greedy enough to want to keep Europe for them selves and stay at war with Britain/Us etc.
    No way.
    Germany would even not have had a chance if Georg Elsers assassination attempt of Nov 8th 1939 would have been successful and the Generals would have taken over and decided to attack France as Manstein planned it... Germany could have had the chance for a negotiated peace IF it would have been ready to accept Allied terms.
    One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.

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    • #3
      Well, without Hitler, at d-day after the German defenses were broken they would have withdrawn the counter attacked, "throwing the allies back in to the sea" as they liked to say back then. As well as that, Maybe the German generals would have caught on that their spies had all been immediately turned by the British and that the British ad broken the enigma code and knew exactly what they were thinking. Rommel wouldn't have killed him self and would have contributed massively.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by hayden1177 View Post
        Well, without Hitler, at d-day after the German defenses were broken they would have withdrawn the counter attacked, "throwing the allies back in to the sea"
        Would they? What makes you think so? On what day after D-day do you think this would be most likely to happen? Have you looked up the orders of battle for that day? Have you looked up who had complete air supremacy over the battlefield on that day?
        Michele

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        • #5
          Originally posted by hayden1177 View Post
          I saw a documentary where the allies sent snipers to assassinate Hitler but decided against it at the last minute because they realised that Hitler was a fool and was the allies greatest asset in Germany.
          If they did assassinate Hitler, and the German army decides to keep fighting, could they have won?
          This is pre d-day by the way.
          Obviously in reality they would negotiate a peace with the allies the turn their full attention to Russia but lets pretend that they are greedy enough to want to keep Europe for them selves and stay at war with Britain/Us etc.
          Hi

          Without Hitler its reasonably feasible that WW2 wouldn't have even started in the first place.

          Regards
          "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

          "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

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          • #6
            Hitler ordered the Germans to stay and fight. He wouldn't allow the forces to retreat, just like how he wouldn't allow Rommel to retreat after being defeated in north Africa. That's why the allies had to spend ages clearing the bocage area of Normandy. If they did retreat are and regroup are you saying they wouldn't try a counter attack as soon as possible while the Allies were still close to the coast? Air superiority obviously offers a massive advantage but it isn't the be all and end all of war. If it were as important as you are implying then the only foot soldier necessary during the war would be men to build air strips and just let bombers and fighters do all the work. Look at the battle of the bulge, the Germans performed a near successful counter attack on the US sector because it was foggy (or was it blizzards?), they would have succeeded if that idiot Hitler had't set to unrealistic targets and ran the tanks dry. Without Hitler, the Germans wouldn't have wasted their air force over Britain in attempt to destroy the RAF for operation sea lion. The question is after all what would happen if Hitler wasn't in charge.

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            • #7
              Well, you had your answers. IMO you wont convince any of those who posted until now that the Germans could have won the War at any time just because Hitlers gone.

              Question is if you can be convinced...
              One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.

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              • #8
                I think they probably could.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by hayden1177 View Post
                  I think they probably could.
                  Look up the answers to Michele's questions and get back with us...

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by hayden1177 View Post
                    Hitler ordered the Germans to stay and fight. He wouldn't allow the forces to retreat, just like how he wouldn't allow Rommel to retreat after being defeated in north Africa. That's why the allies had to spend ages clearing the bocage area of Normandy. If they did retreat are and regroup are you saying they wouldn't try a counter attack as soon as possible while the Allies were still close to the coast?
                    Maybe. What makes you think they would be successful? On what day do you reckon this could happen? Have you looked up the orders of battle for that day? What was the balance of forces? The real one, not just a list of unit names; things like running AFVs and men and ammunition stocks. What maneuvers exactly do you envision the Germans could perform? What would be the locations to attack? How many tons of supplies were the Allies unloading by then in Normandy? How many tons of supplies the German frontline units were receiving through the devastated French rail network?
                    Michele

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                    • #11
                      What is your problem pal. This is just a fun hypothetical, I'm not stood in front of the German high command proposing a comprehensive plan for a counter attack with all the details and contingencies all figured out. The core question is would the German military be able to defeat the allies if Hitler wasn't there to interfere.

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                      • #12
                        "What makes you think they would be successful? On what day do you reckon this could happen? Have you looked up the orders of battle for that day? What was the balance of forces? "

                        Why are you asking me questions relating to the real Normandy invasion? I'm talking about a hypothetical German military.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by hayden1177 View Post
                          "What makes you think they would be successful? On what day do you reckon this could happen? Have you looked up the orders of battle for that day? What was the balance of forces? "

                          Why are you asking me questions relating to the real Normandy invasion? I'm talking about a hypothetical German military.
                          Maybe because you have to defend your WI scenario? You just can't come on here and suggest a barebones scenario and not be asked to defend it. Are we all just supposed to say "yes, the almighty Germans would have thrown the Allies into the sea if it wasn't for that nincompoop Hitler" and be done with it?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by johns624 View Post
                            Maybe because you have to defend your WI scenario? You just can't come on here and suggest a barebones scenario and not be asked to defend it. Are we all just supposed to say "yes, the almighty Germans would have thrown the Allies into the sea if it wasn't for that nincompoop Hitler" and be done with it?
                            Well, we all know that "they" say that Hitler was a nincompoop. "They" also say that the Germans were almighty. I've never managed to find out who "they" are, but I think "they" are Germans, too.

                            Either way, despite what "they" say, Germany did not have the means to achieve victory, even with no D-Day. The Second World War was a war of attrition. Germany was too small and weak to outspend their enemies.

                            Regards
                            Scott Fraser
                            Ignorance is not the lack of knowledge. It is the refusal to learn.

                            A contentedly cantankerous old fart

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                            • #15
                              Obviously not. Do you want me to describe the German army in full down to the last man? If you don't know the state of the German military pre D-day, post Dunkirk then don't answer the question. All i wanted to know was if anyone thinks that under control of someone other than Hitler, did the German army have the potential to win the war, or were they doomed from the start? It's not like i just asked you how to dig half a hole. It's like asking if one football team had the potential to win against another football team under more competent leadership.

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