Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Patton's 3rd instead of Horrocks' XXX on Arnhem road

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by Mifletz View Post
    The British survivors said that had they had more PIATS and PIAT rounds, they could have held the panzers off indefinitely.

    Were any PIAT supplies even ever dropped?



    Were the 1st even able to communicate their ammunition requirements with their dodgy radios?
    The problem with the supply drops is that there were six designated drop zones. The 1st had a number of Rebecca sets that were to be used on each zone to mark it and guide the transports to their drops. Four of the six zones were overrun by the Germans by the end of the second day and of the two remaining ones only one had a working Rebecca transmitter on it.
    Needless to say not much of the supplies being dropped ended up in British hands.
    The Rebecca sets are a separate problem from key and voice transmissions. Rebecca sets simply transmitted a CW signal on a set frequency. Aircraft would home in on them using their Eureka receiver set.

    See the antenna on the side of the fuselage below the cockpit. That is one of two (the other is on the other side) on the plane and those are the Eureka receivers.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Mifletz View Post
      Here British tanks stop on the Arnhem road "and drink tea"
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1EsDkm_r3o

      In theory, if it had been General "Blood & Guts" Patton leading half his 3rd Army up the road instead of the Horrocks' XXX Corps, would he have been any more or less successful at reaching the paras at Arnhem in time, or no difference?
      Patton would have made no difference at all, it truly was a bridge too far. IMHO attacking the Ruhr via Aachen as the main axis would have been a better idea (in retrospect). Sending just enough fuel/etc to the 3rd Army in Lorraine would have helped this (allowing 3rd Army to pursue after the battles around Arracourt).
      "Amateurs study tactics; professionals study logistics"
      -Omar Bradley
      "Not everyone who studies logistics is a professional logistician, and there is no way to understand when you don't know what you don't know."
      -Anonymous US Army logistician

      Comment


      • #33
        Dont know much about why the DZ & LZ were chosen. Have asked once or twice & received partial of ambigious answers. On the game board the difference is not clear. What I've found is placing the the initial DZ closer, directly adjacent, to the Arnhem & Njimegan bridges makes a large difference. The outcome is much more favorable to the 18th & 30th corps. What that might have to do with the reality of 70 years ago I cant say, but I would like to see a clearer or more detailed explination of the DZ selection.

        Comment


        • #34
          One wonders what would have been the effect on the psychology of the German defenders when word got out out that it was Black men dropping out of the sky, if it had been the 555th "Triple Nickles" deployed at Arnhem?

          And how would the Black paras have fared in combat?

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
            Dont know much about why the DZ & LZ were chosen. Have asked once or twice & received partial of ambigious answers. On the game board the difference is not clear. What I've found is placing the the initial DZ closer, directly adjacent, to the Arnhem & Njimegan bridges makes a large difference. The outcome is much more favorable to the 18th & 30th corps. What that might have to do with the reality of 70 years ago I cant say, but I would like to see a clearer or more detailed explination of the DZ selection.
            I'm surprised by this. The drop zones were not closer to to the south side of the bridge because it was felt that the ground was too soft for gliders (and the British had plenty of them). It was also thought that a drop zone that close to the town would run too much risk to the transport aircraft from flak and other nearby defences.

            On the other hand, the ground farther west was higher, drier and further from the local flak defence and Deleen airfield. The decision was largely made by the transport command staff and it did raise eye brows amongst Urquart's officers. Even with the long march from Oosterbeek the bridge was still nearly taken but for the lucky move of SS training battalion to the exact right spot to derail the march.

            As far as the game board goes, SPI's monster game had a rule where any drop not in "clear" terrain on the northern maps (the polder south of the bridge was not clear) "disrupted" the landing forces, effectively making them useless and extremely vulnerable for what amounted to a couple of hours. Any game that makes a drop south of the bridge easy likely does not take the water logged nature of the terrain into effect.
            The Purist

            Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Mifletz View Post
              One wonders what would have been the effect on the psychology of the German defenders when word got out out that it was Black men dropping out of the sky, if it had been the 555th "Triple Nickles" deployed at Arnhem?

              And how would the Black paras have fared in combat?

              The 17th Airborne was just being set up in Europe and the 13th Airborne Division was also scheduled to come into Europe. These guys would have been sent before the "Triple Nickles". I think at the time of the Arnhem drop they were being used used in the West to fight Forest Fires. There is an outside chance they could have been used to drop into Japan.

              Pruitt
              Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

              Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

              by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Mifletz View Post
                One wonders what would have been the effect on the psychology of the German defenders when word got out out that it was Black men dropping out of the sky, if it had been the 555th "Triple Nickles" deployed at Arnhem?

                And how would the Black paras have fared in combat?

                I thought there was something familar with post #34. It appears to be a paste job (post #24) from here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...66831&start=15

                ....posted a couple years ago. Same person legitimately reposting, or?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                  I thought there was something familar with post #34. It appears to be a paste job (post #24) from here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...66831&start=15

                  ....posted a couple years ago. Same person legitimately reposting, or?
                  http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...09&postcount=2

                  Same guy, different name reposting here.
                  So far I've been able to find almost all his posts here in some form on AHF.
                  And his style is the same, posting bizarre scenarios and then ignoring almost all input except to post further improbable twists to his fantasies

                  Guess he's hoping for a more receptive audience here

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    No, moderation is tighter on AHF, so it is easier to get away with posting bizarre arguments here with no back up.

                    WWI forum has been plagued by this.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I generally scan the threads for "utter" nonsense but until posters get totally out of hand with ignoring reality things can move along. Threads can be ignored by posters if they so desire.
                      The Purist

                      Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by CarpeDiem View Post
                        http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...09&postcount=2

                        Same guy, different name reposting here.
                        So far I've been able to find almost all his posts here in some form on AHF.
                        And his style is the same, posting bizarre scenarios and then ignoring almost all input except to post further improbable twists to his fantasies

                        Guess he's hoping for a more receptive audience here
                        Thanks to you & Carl for joining those dots. There was a little voice in my head telling me this guy's style was a bit too familiar. Just couldn't place it. Been a while since I was on AHF. Probably explains it. Unfortunately he is consistent.
                        Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I remember reading in "A Bridge To Far" that the Dutch advisers tried to tell the British that their attack would not work. It seems that the Dutch Army had war game such plans time and time again...found that attacks on one side of a river always failed such as took place....BUT attacks on the other side from the west always were successful...in war games. I will have to reread to determine which river.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by LtCol View Post
                            I remember reading in "A Bridge To Far" that the Dutch advisers tried to tell the British that their attack would not work. It seems that the Dutch Army had war game such plans time and time again...found that attacks on one side of a river always failed such as took place....BUT attacks on the other side from the west always were successful...in war games. I will have to reread to determine which river.
                            Yep. I remember the same. If you want to experience the 'island' get a digital download of Close Combat 2 and play the operation. Against a human player the Allies will almost always lose. (That's head to head, both players having played the game for over a decade.) It's a combination of polder and a single lane elevated road that makes it just a death trap...
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_C...Bridge_Too_Far
                            Credo quia absurdum.


                            Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                            Comment

                            Latest Topics

                            Collapse

                            Working...
                            X