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Patton's 3rd instead of Horrocks' XXX on Arnhem road

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  • Patton's 3rd instead of Horrocks' XXX on Arnhem road

    Here British tanks stop on the Arnhem road "and drink tea"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1EsDkm_r3o

    In theory, if it had been General "Blood & Guts" Patton leading half his 3rd Army up the road instead of the Horrocks' XXX Corps, would he have been any more or less successful at reaching the paras at Arnhem in time, or no difference?

  • #2
    If American Airborne troops had secured Nijmegen, the British Armor Division would have had their Infantry with them. You should also take note of the Tanks on the raised road. The road is basically one tank wide and if you get off the road you bog down. German antitank guns could see the British tanks coming for miles. Destroy the first tank in the column and you have to remove it from the road and then drive on and the next tank gets hit.

    Patton's troops had been siphoned off as he went across France. The American high command were taking his best veteran divisions and replacing them with new, green divisions.

    Pruitt
    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

    Comment


    • #3
      A war movie is such a great source for info. You have reached a new level of
      "Ask not what your country can do for you"

      Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

      you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Mifletz View Post
        Here British tanks stop on the Arnhem road "and drink tea"
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1EsDkm_r3o

        In theory, if it had been General "Blood & Guts" Patton leading half his 3rd Army up the road instead of the Horrocks' XXX Corps, would he have been any more or less successful at reaching the paras at Arnhem in time, or no difference?
        Nope. The german bear cavalry would have cut him off. The only thing that saves them is the eigth airforce and bomber command dropping the entire US honey crop on them.
        "Sometimes its better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness" T Pratchett

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        • #5
          The US would have done one thing different for sure:

          They would have pushed units up every road they could find. Mechanized Cavalry, small mobile task forces formed on the fly, etc., would have gone up every road in sight.

          With a little foresight Patton would also have had DUKW and other amphibious vehicles available for river crossings, bridges or not.
          Maybe he would have done one of his "airborne" assaults using L-4 Grasshoppers flying in 2 men at a time like he did at the Rhine. The little planes put a battalion of infantry across the river in a matter of a few hours.

          Comment


          • #6
            A terrible scenario. We'd have been without Edward Fox's
            General Horrocks explanation of Market-Garden to the
            troops. A major downer (and mightily bored we'd be).

            Comment


            • #7
              Ex-Fortnum & Mason doorman Fox was good

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOOcrunnLYE



              But Scott as Patton was betta!

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b5g1avyCSA

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              • #8
                I dont think Patton would have made much of a difference regarding the outcome. It was a badly executed plan from the start. With Patton's ego and strong headedness it would have been more of a disaster for the Allies.

                Death bed last words. Always pay the Legions, Septimius Severus.

                http://www.greatmilitarybattles.com/...d_war_two.html

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                • #9
                  Scott was good in The Changeling and Dr. Strangelove. Patton was just another ego-filled bopic of a bighead.

                  Patton, along with the U.S Marines attached to spearhead his 3rd Army, would have celebrated his 59th birthday in Berlin and been hailed the greatest General since Alexander. With Hitler and his cronies laying prostrate at his feet; his troops the most elite and best in all history

                  Paul
                  Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 15 Jul 14, 20:53.
                  ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                  All human ills he can subdue,
                  Or with a bauble or medal
                  Can win mans heart for you;
                  And many a blessing know to stew
                  To make a megloamaniac bright;
                  Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                  The Pixie is a little shite.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
                    Scott was good in The Changeling and Dr. Strangelove. Patton was just another ego-filled bopic of a bighead.

                    Patton would have fared the same.

                    Paul
                    Monty was good at the set piece battle. He wasn't so good at a war of maneuver on the fly. Patton was the opposite.
                    Once the front broke open Patton would have had his troops romp all over the Netherlands. None of that one road to Arnhem nonsense. If the Nijmegen bridge needed a river assault it would have been in powered boats (US engineers have these as standard equipment), SEEPS (amphibious jeeps), and DUKWs at a minimum.
                    On small rivers / streams like at Grave the US would have just dumped some pipes or corrugated tubing in and bulldozed a road over the gap like they did elsewhere in France.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                      Monty was good at the set piece battle. He wasn't so good at a war of maneuver on the fly. Patton was the opposite.
                      Once the front broke open Patton would have had his troops romp all over the Netherlands. None of that one road to Arnhem nonsense. If the Nijmegen bridge needed a river assault it would have been in powered boats (US engineers have these as standard equipment), SEEPS (amphibious jeeps), and DUKWs at a minimum.
                      On small rivers / streams like at Grave the US would have just dumped some pipes or corrugated tubing in and bulldozed a road over the gap like they did elsewhere in France.


                      Paul
                      ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                      All human ills he can subdue,
                      Or with a bauble or medal
                      Can win mans heart for you;
                      And many a blessing know to stew
                      To make a megloamaniac bright;
                      Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                      The Pixie is a little shite.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
                        Patton, along with the U.S Marines attached to spearhead his 3rd Army, would have celebrated his 59th birthday in Berlin and been hailed the greatest General since Alexander. With Hitler and his cronies laying prostrate at his feet; his troops the most elite and best in all history

                        Paul
                        Paul,
                        The only US Marines to see duty in Western Europe were the Jedburgh team that was parachuted into the Alps North of the Riviera. No telling what feats Patton would have accomplished with just one Marine Division in 3rd Army!

                        Pruitt
                        Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                        Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                        by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                          Paul,
                          The only US Marines to see duty in Western Europe were the Jedburgh team that was parachuted into the Alps North of the Riviera. No telling what feats Patton would have accomplished with just one Marine Division in 3rd Army!

                          Pruitt
                          I refer you to the what if pages on these forums.

                          Did you notice in my last?

                          Paul
                          ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                          All human ills he can subdue,
                          Or with a bauble or medal
                          Can win mans heart for you;
                          And many a blessing know to stew
                          To make a megloamaniac bright;
                          Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                          The Pixie is a little shite.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
                            I refer you to the what if pages on these forums.

                            Did you notice in my last?

                            Paul
                            So you are saying this post is special and different from your previous posts? Okay, if you say so!

                            Pruitt
                            Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                            Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                            by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                              So you are saying this post is special and different from your previous posts? Okay, if you say so!

                              Pruitt
                              No! It means

                              Paul
                              ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                              All human ills he can subdue,
                              Or with a bauble or medal
                              Can win mans heart for you;
                              And many a blessing know to stew
                              To make a megloamaniac bright;
                              Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                              The Pixie is a little shite.

                              Comment

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