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Nightfighter vs Nachtjaeger

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  • Wooden Wonder
    replied
    Officer Dibble - Yes, that old timer I used to work with,{I'm saying that when I'm now about 10yrs than he was!], and who flew night and occasional day pathfinder missions on Mossies had some interesting tales to tell. He reckoned he was rarely concerned about the Luftwaffe including the Me262, but a bit wary of some of the heavy Flak.

    He was in Lancasters before he managed to wangle getting into the Wooden Wonders.

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  • Dibble201Bty
    replied
    Originally posted by Wooden Wonder View Post
    Mosquito night fighters in large numbers would have played hell with He219s and most other German night fighters. The biggest problem they might face is getting mistaken as a German night fighter by the Lancs. - a decent IFF system would be needed.
    Gibson's Mosquito may have been one of those victims:

    http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...bson_death.htm

    The longer the war went on, the more impotent the Jerry night-fighters became. The Mozzi reigned supreme (amongst other things) as a night-fighter, pathfinder/target indicator and bomber.

    Jerry Kaput!

    Paul
    Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 09 Jun 14, 02:33.

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  • Surrey
    replied
    More Mosquito night fighters would have enabled an even more efficient destruction of German economic and military targets.
    The few mosquitoes there were in real life led to mosquito panic amongst the German night fighter crews. Double or treble the numbers and the Luftwaffe would've been wiped out in the night, just as the USAF wiped them out during the day.

    So less Raf casualties, more Luftwaffe casualties and more not less bombing of German cities. The Allies win the battle of Berlin as well as that of the Ruhr.

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  • Wooden Wonder
    replied
    Mosquito night fighters in large numbers would have played hell with He219s and most other German night fighters. The biggest problem they might face is getting mistaken as a German night fighter by the Lancs. - a decent IFF system would be needed.

    Leave a comment:


  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Originally posted by Mifletz View Post
    WI instead of 95 bombers lost in the March 1944 Nurenberg raid, it had been 195?

    And the Germans, with better radar and more Uhus, infra red detectors, proximity fuses etc had maintained a 20% destruction rate of RAF bombers, thus making the night skies of Germany out of bounds to Harris' heavies?

    What does he do with his huge night bomber force to still profitably strike at the Nazis?

    The British go all out for an electronics jamming war, increase Mossie bomber production, and send over many more of their own night-fighters to wage a nightfighters-only war over Berlin.

    The war ends as in OTL, but with most German cities much less damaged and not requiring a total rebuilding.



    .
    For the Germans to have "better radar" they would have to have discovered cavity magnetrons, developed the necessary electronics to go with them and put that radar in service. Given that the German electronics industry was stretched beyond it capacity to produce what it did there isn't going to be a lot more of anything going to the Luftwaffe.

    By 1944 the Nichtjäger are reduced to almost blindly searching for bombers in a sky so full of jamming they are reduced to using a morse-like spark gap teletype (Bernard / Bernadine)

    http://www.gyges.dk/luftwaffe_bernhard.htm

    The RAF's nightfighters (and USAAF for that matter) had far better equipment. Their millimeter wave radars were not on frequencies being jammed, not that the Germans have the kind of jamming the Allies are using in mass (they had jammers but these were of more limited effectiveness).
    The RAF's nightfighters also have some pretty nasty gear for finding or luring their German counterparts into a trap.
    The RAF's planes might:

    Use Monica tail warning radar to lure a German nightfighter using Flensburg to try and make an attack run on the plane. This would be countered by detecting the incoming fighter then turning off the Monica and executing a "Whiting maneuver" to turn the hunter into the hunted.

    Another is Perfectos. This device mimicked German IFF transponders and caused the nightfighter's IFF to give away the plane's position to the British nightfighter using it.
    The German response to this was turning off their IFF. That left them vulnerable to amicide from flak and their own aircraft.

    Serrate allowed a British nightfighter to home with accuracy from as much as 50 miles out on a German nightfighter using any of the Lichtenstein series radars.

    By 1944 British Beaufighter and Mosquito nightfighters were operating with the bomber stream. They flew above and along side it.

    The He 219 is no panacea to this either. It really isn't much better, if at all, than the Ju 88G. So a few more, considering that NJG 1 was about the only operator of He 219, won't make much difference.

    The problem is that the night bomber campaign was heavily dependent on electronics and electronic warfare. This is one area the Germans were a lap down in a foot race and falling further behind in. They simply don't have the industrial capacity or electronics research capacity to catch up.

    They were generally lucky to reach half that many losses (10%) to the British.

    This also does nothing to stop the USAAF by day plastering targets.

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  • Selous
    replied
    Gibson as PM - intriguing concept. I like that kind of what if.

    No reason to conduct the bombing campaign any other way in terms of bombers - just kit the Mosquito out with as much night-fighting gear as possible/makes sense and send more up per Lancaster. Dresden can still get destroyed and the odds of Gibson surviving don't change much - in fact could even improve - so he could still survive.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mifletz
    started a topic Nightfighter vs Nachtjaeger

    Nightfighter vs Nachtjaeger

    WI instead of 95 bombers lost in the March 1944 Nurenberg raid, it had been 195?

    And the Germans, with better radar and more Uhus, infra red detectors, proximity fuses etc had maintained a 20% destruction rate of RAF bombers, thus making the night skies of Germany out of bounds to Harris' heavies?

    What does he do with his huge night bomber force to still profitably strike at the Nazis?

    The British go all out for an electronics jamming war, increase Mossie bomber production, and send over many more of their own night-fighters to wage a nightfighters-only war over Berlin.

    The war ends as in OTL, but with most German cities much less damaged and not requiring a total rebuilding.



    Dresden doesn't take place, 45,000 Bomber Command crew die instead of 55,000, many more German civilians survive the war, Harris and his crew get their denied campaign medal, and not being labelled in the 80s as "war criminal" by loony-leftists and misguided liberals, his statue never gets to be vandalised.



    Dambuster hero Guy Gibson VC survives the war and becomes UK PM in 1963.

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