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  • #46
    Not interested any more

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    • #47
      leandros - The Philippines was a lot closer to Japan than the US or Pearl. The USN was deficient in fleet carriers at that time, and had yet to produce a powerful and effective Fleet logistical support train.

      I could imagine a futile scenario rather than a successful one. Far better MacArthur bug out on a PT boat and wade back a while later a conquering hero, 'I'll be back' Arnie Schwarzenegger like.
      Last edited by Wooden Wonder; 09 Jun 14, 15:48.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Wooden Wonder View Post
        leandros - The Philippines was a lot closer to Japan than the US or Pearl. The USN was deficient in fleet carriers at that time, and had yet to produce a powerful and effective Fleet logistical support train.

        I could imagine a futile scenario rather than a successful one. Far better MacArthur bug out on a PT boat and wade back a while later a conquering hero, 'I'll be back' Arnie Schwarzenegger like.
        http://www.history.army.mil/brochures/pi/PI.htm

        dismal reading, but you are right. Perhaps a massed bomber attack on the e Morning of Dec 8 to raid the harbor bases in Taiwan may have caught the Japanese invasion fleet unawares.

        The last charge of the B18 Bolos.

        In the real time line, MacArthur Froze, and failed to allow Brereton to make any bombing attack.
        Last edited by marktwain; 12 Apr 19, 17:35. Reason: Farago
        The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
          We are browbeating you because if the USA adopts the plan measures you have proposed and charges off to the Philippines to rescue MacArthur, it will fall flat on its face. The USA did not do it because it not only could not do it but also because operations like this are not planned out on the back of a fag packet and proceeded with overnight.

          You have made no provision for requisitioning adequate numbers of transport vessels for this operation. The British reconquest of the Falkland Islands/Las Malvinas required a flotilla of 127 ships: 43 RN vessels, 22 Royal Fleet Auxiliary vessels, and 62 merchant ships. And gathering that lot together took more than a week. The Falklands are closer to Britain than the Philippines are to the mainland USA, and the Argentine forces of known and small size.
          December 25th, 1941

          The White House,
          Washington.

          Dear Brody,

          I am sorry that you have decided to desert General MacArthur and his men in the Philippines. The more so as you have obviously not read the attachments to my Presidential Letters from which you would have seen that the way our relief operation is taking form is not planned on the back of a fag packet. On the contrary, the basis of our determined, and enforced, effort is what was actually planned for before the Japanese assaults. What is meant to amplify that is my decision to use all available ABDA US forces offensively for our own purposes, the relief of the Philippines, as opposed to squander them on defensive operations we at this stage still do not see what shall be.

          That our ABDA allies, except for the British, have seen fit to contribute with their share in our plan is fortunate and, I am sure, shall much improve our chances of success in our venture. This was a difficult decision to make but it may actually prove to be more efficient than the original framework ABDA planning. We shall see.

          I am not sure which British conflict you are referring to – is this the Battle of the Falklands in WW1? The time scope you are referring to – one week – can nevertheless hardly be comparable to the situation in hand, as much of the resources we are drawing on now were already in planning months ago. That said, it is now almost three weeks since the Japanese assaults on our bases in the Pacific. Only during this fall and December almost a hundred ship transports were planned for the Philippines. With my decision to give the Pacific Theatre the highest priority for a period an abundance of resources are now available to us.

          FDR

          President of the United States of America

          Please, look in at the link below. Could be a text as by someone writing a book about it:

          http://issuu.com/leandros1945/docs/t...833812/8276268
          Last edited by leandros; 16 Jun 14, 14:52.
          Saving MacArthur - a book series - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ies_rw_dp_labf
          River Wide, Ocean Deep - Operation Sealion - https://www.amazon.com/product-revie...owViewpoints=1

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Wooden Wonder View Post
            leandros - The Philippines was a lot closer to Japan than the US or Pearl. The USN was deficient in fleet carriers at that time, and had yet to produce a powerful and effective Fleet logistical support train.
            December 26th, 1941

            The White House,
            Washington.

            Dear WW,

            We appreciate your inputs but I am not sure I understand the importance of The Philippines being closer to Japan than the US or Pearl. Surely The Philippines is where the enemy and our forces in need of relief are. I could say the same for our carrier force. That is where they are needed – not wasted on fruitless diversionary missions in areas which are of little relative importance at this time – like what has earlier been promoted by parties of the naval leadership. I have been able to remedy that.

            Ships and men from the Pensacola convoy are in the process of leaving Brisbane as I write to you. Its destination is as of yet not decided. It shall depend on what moves are made by the Japanese in the following days. The Enterprise Task force is approaching Australia just now and shall most probably pass the Pensacola convoy on its way to its destination. A convoy with the remainder of the Hawaiian 24th infantry division, several mobile radar sets and six PT boats has just left Hawaii. This shall join up with a convoy en route from SF with two infantry regiments and an artillery regiment onboard. Another carrier task force is planned to depart Pearl within a couple of days and the Yorktown convoy with, among others, the 2nd Marine Brigade onboard, is planned to leave SF on January the 6th.

            We are getting full cooperation from our Dutch and Australian ABDA partners, they have promised to support our effort to establish a Relief Route Australia-Mindanao through the Eastern part of the Dutch East Indies with what relative forces they can spare. The Australians are in the process of organizing two Independent (jungle warfare) Companies in Darwin and one infantry battalion sent from Brisbane in addition to several naval vessels, more Hudson bombers for Ambon and an 18-plane squadron of Wirraway light bombers. The Dutch are diverting the cruiser Java to Ambon with a couple of destroyers and two submarines to operate under US command for the relief operation. Their naval air force is prepared to release more torpedo and bomb-capable seaplanes from their reserve units in Java. Even their modernized Fokker T-IV floatplanes, an old type that can carry torpedoes as well as bombs, have been promised us if we can provide escorts for them in combat zones. Our people are looking at that. A large squadron of Martin 139 WH-3’s is also being readied by their army air force. Our clear and outspoken intention to immediately strike back at the Japanese has ignited a great fighting spirit in our allies.

            While General MacArthur’s situation may develop into a need for him to leave the Philippines, presently as important is it to save the Philippine garrison as a whole. Not only the forces on Luzon but on all the islands. If it should come to the point that the US forces in the Philippines have to surrender it shall make it so much easier for the enemy to fulfill his goal, total control of the South-West Pacific with all its precious resources. With our Philippine forces intact the Japanese situation shall be much more complicated.

            If you have read the numerous postings here, with their attachments, you should know what is needed in our future operations. That is not half-measures, which I have been able to turn my military leadership away from, but constructive proposals on how our fighting capability can be enhanced in the short term.

            Best Regds

            FDR

            President of the United States of America


            Please, look in at the link below. Could be a text as by someone writing a book about it:

            http://issuu.com/leandros1945/docs/a...833812/8391972
            Saving MacArthur - a book series - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ies_rw_dp_labf
            River Wide, Ocean Deep - Operation Sealion - https://www.amazon.com/product-revie...owViewpoints=1

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by marktwain View Post
              http://www.history.army.mil/brochures/pi/PI.htm

              dismal reading, but you are right. Perhaps a massed bomber attack on the Morning of Dec 8 may have caught the Japanese fleet unawares.
              December 27th, 1941

              The White House,
              Washington.

              Dear Mark,

              I am happy to say that my efforts to expedite the relief of the Philippines now seem to take effect both regarding equipment, the numerous own and allied units on its way, as well as the Philippine defense itself. General MacArthur has seen fit to withdraw his Luzon forces into the Bataan Peninsula to ensure the continued existence of his present forces there, in that way tying up Japanese forces to the benefit of the Relief Force, so that these easier can establish themselves in the Eastern Dutch East Indies and the southern part of the Philippines. At the same time General Sharp, commanding officer of the Visayan Islands, has been instructed by MacArthur to move his HQ and the main part of his forces in the Visayas to Mindanao to ensure an early base for the Relief Force.

              In the meantime our present force at Mindanao has been able to frustrate any significant advances by the Japanese occupation forces in Davao and Diego on the southern part of Mindanao. To push these Japanese forces back shall be first priority for General Sharp’s enlarged forces. To assist him in such a push Admiral Hart’s people in Ambon, on the behest of General MacArthur, are planning a bombing raid with all allied assets against Davao airfield, which is occupied by the Japanese, and a fleet of transports and warships anchored outside the city. A wolf-pack of submarines is also being readied for this. If they are able to neutralize Davao airfield and push the Japanese eastwards out of Diego the first relief forces shall probably land in Diego and Zamboanga within the first week of January.

              It is with great expectation I await news of the first allied forces landing on the newly-established bases in the Eastern Dutch East Indies and on Mindanao.

              Best Regds

              FDR

              President of the United States of America


              Please, look in at the link below. Could be a text as by someone writing a book about it:

              http://issuu.com/leandros1945/docs/t..._december_26th
              Saving MacArthur - a book series - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ies_rw_dp_labf
              River Wide, Ocean Deep - Operation Sealion - https://www.amazon.com/product-revie...owViewpoints=1

              Comment


              • #52
                Unless the intentions to really hold the PI are based full deployment of US reinforcements, supply, integration with Filipino forces ordered on letters from FDR dated "December 10, 1940" and include plans to assure the defense of Pearl Harbor from attack through a sneak attack on Japanese carriers in Tokyo Bay, I doubt that the loss of the Philippines was preventable.
                "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
                George Mason
                Co-author of the Second Amendment
                during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Cyberknight View Post
                  Unless the intentions to really hold the PI are based full deployment of US reinforcements, supply, integration with Filipino forces ordered on letters from FDR dated "December 10, 1940" and include plans to assure the defense of Pearl Harbor from attack through a sneak attack on Japanese carriers in Tokyo Bay, I doubt that the loss of the Philippines was preventable.
                  December 30th, 1941

                  The White House,
                  Washington.

                  Dear General,

                  Thank you for your educated opinion. As you may know by now we were not able to secure Pearl Harbor from a Japanese sneak attack. However, our losses there have been less than they could have been. Yes, our battlefield fleet got a severe beating but our cruiser and destroyer flotillas are intact, which are also our submarines. Firstly, our carrier fleet is in full operation. As a matter of fact the Enterprise task force shall deliver a load of army fighters to an unspecified place in The Moluccans within a few days. With that task force are also the first army ground reinforcement units.

                  You may not be aware of this but the “December 10, 1940” order you refer to was implemented this summer. It has started to take effect, which is shown by MacArthur’s successful withdrawal to Bataan and Corregidor and the stalling of the Japanese invasion attempt on Southern Mindanao. The Filipino Army is now under American command.

                  All our, and some allied, naval units in the area are now being concentrated along the axis Australia-Mindanao. A convoy with an artillery brigade and ancillary units left Brisbane on the 26th, destined for “somewhere in the Moluccans”.

                  As time pass it becomes ever more clear that the Japanese have a capacity problem in the Eastern Dutch Indies. Their Davao invasion force has proved to be weak. If these forces are assigned further missions other places they shall have to leave Mindanao before concluding their mission there. General Sharp on Mindanao is adamant that he shall be able to drive them into the sea if he can get some pivotal reinforcements. These are on their way.

                  Best Regds

                  FDR

                  President of the United States of America

                  More details below:

                  http://issuu.com/leandros1945/docs/c..._ambon_-_decem
                  Last edited by leandros; 04 Nov 14, 06:24.
                  Saving MacArthur - a book series - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ies_rw_dp_labf
                  River Wide, Ocean Deep - Operation Sealion - https://www.amazon.com/product-revie...owViewpoints=1

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by leandros View Post
                    I have prepared some documents which are written in the form “if-I should-write-a-book”, meant to illustrate or inspire the discussion. A link to one is posted below. I would also recommend getting the book: Racing the Sunrise by Glen Williford. It contains valuable information on what was on its way, or planned to go, to the Philippines when the war started.

                    Go for it! Save MacArthur!

                    Fred
                    Back again! I have come quite a way now on the idea I have described in earlier posts - a book series on an alternate development in the South-West Pacific in WW2 - mainly in and around the Philippines.

                    It has taken the form of several eight-chapter "books" - some already posted on Kindle. The "action" is narrated through various scenarios with reference to the OTL but with changes as per variations caused by three pre-requisites:

                    1. An aggressive US leadership that has understood the Japanese problem - that they are over-stretching themselves.

                    2. All US resources are used primarily to facilitate the Relief of The Philippines and its future use as a base against the Japanese aggressor.

                    3. The establishing of ADA - an American, Dutch and Australian collaboration where the primary object is the same as "2", because this shall also facilitate the security of the Dutch East Indies and Australia.

                    The story tells how this influenced on "history". Whether I shall succeed in this balancing act is not for me to decide. Presently, I'm in the beginning of May and I shan't say more than that I still have several feet on The Philippines. As importantly, the "Relief Route", the sea route between Australia and The Philippines, the Moluccans, is still intact and under allied control.

                    With all the changes caused by the pre-requisites, I started to lose control when I approached the end of January '42, too many things evolved differently than the OTL - something had to be done to keep track of units, ships and equipment. Then I bumped into the WitP - War in the Pacific - Admiral's Edition - a strategic PC game. I soon found that this could be used as a sort of filing cabinet and I started to adapt it for the purpose a year ago. Its AI can also be a very naughty opponent even if using it generally would have resulted in quite a lot of side-tracking. I've tried to keep it true to the "story".

                    Presently, I'm in the beginning of May '42 and have almost finished six books. The first ones are posted on Kindle. Please have some leniency with these first ones. Kindle promotes their system as easy to use but it is not. Not for me, anyway. Peculiarities in text and lay-out always pop up. So far, I have put up three of them, 1-3 - here is a link to the first one:

                    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01...=1&*entries*=0

                    I believe they still can be read for FREE, actually I'm not sure. Anyway, it's not for the money! Feel free to comment here. The action is picking up as it goes. I have put in a few "red-thread" figures, too. They shall pop up as time passes. I hope to have the Indians rounded up by the end of the year.

                    Fred
                    Saving MacArthur - a book series - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ies_rw_dp_labf
                    River Wide, Ocean Deep - Operation Sealion - https://www.amazon.com/product-revie...owViewpoints=1

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Well, here we go - the first five, 8-chapter books are out - each averaging about 80.000-90.000 words. I recommend you start on book 1 to get the maximum insight into the concept. I dare say - it is different....

                      Saving MacArthur - a book series - book 1: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01...=1&*entries*=0
                      Saving MacArthur - a book series - book 2: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01...=1&*entries*=0
                      Saving MacArthur - a book series - book 3: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01...=1&*entries*=0
                      Saving MacArthur - a book series - book 4: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01...=1&*entries*=0
                      Saving MacArthur - a book series - book 5: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01...=1&*entries*=0

                      More to follow shortly.

                      Fred
                      Last edited by leandros; 29 Jan 16, 01:31.
                      Saving MacArthur - a book series - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ies_rw_dp_labf
                      River Wide, Ocean Deep - Operation Sealion - https://www.amazon.com/product-revie...owViewpoints=1

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        I have almost finished Book 7 - it's July 4th, 1942 - MacArthur's force build-up in Theatre has been extensive and he is now pondering one of three alternatives:

                        1. To continue consolidate his force build-up and terrain gain (see map) and concentrate on blocking the South China Sea with bomber and submarine forces mainly based on Palawan (Puerto Princesa and TayTay).

                        2. At the same time go go for Palau to secure his right flank.

                        3. To retake part of Luzon for the purpose of establishing a springboard to invade Formosa.

                        He has decided to go for point 3.

                        Picture 1: The Philippines - July 4th 1942

                        Picture 2: Theatre of Operations - red spots are Japanese presence - green allied.

                        Picture 3 and 4: Examples of air and ground forces build-up on TayTay.

                        There are similar forces on other Philippine and PTO bases. On Mindanao there is a complete Marines division (Cagayan area) and the 32nd ID is just now unloading in the Davao area.

                        Fred

















                        Last edited by leandros; 02 Apr 16, 06:06.
                        Saving MacArthur - a book series - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ies_rw_dp_labf
                        River Wide, Ocean Deep - Operation Sealion - https://www.amazon.com/product-revie...owViewpoints=1

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          To test my theories I have started a new PBEM game in WITP - War in the Pacific - strategy game. AARs - After Action Reports - can be found here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm...4&mpage=1&key= - they are in the form of Australian newspaper articles.

                          As far as I have found, no strategy (war) game can better simulate the war in the Pacific than the WITP - Admiral's Edition, and I have had the fortune to have got a very experienced member to play the Japanese side. For those interested, pre-requisites for the game are sorted out in the beginning of the thread. A slight complication is that i am much less experienced than my opponent which, at least, should not favour me - or my theories.

                          Presently, on April 7th, 1942, Bataan is sound and healthy due to the fact that the withdrawal went according to plan (as it did in RL) and the US Navy has followed up on the President's wish to support MacArthur fully and therefore contributed with transports and escorts for the purpose. Not without losses, but nevertheless. Actually, the Bataan defense is so good that the Japanese haven't even tried to repeat their first feeble attacks but instead keep up a 50.000-man siege.

                          The fight is now for Mindanao where the US forces have been chased out of Cagayan and Davao, but have strong garrisons in Zamboanga, and Dadjangas on the southern extreme of the island. An amphibious operation is just now underway to re-take Jolo Island as it was occupied quite early by the Japanese. In the meantime the enemy has expanded the airfields there which is the main reason for re-taking it.

                          Due to the heavy resistance in the Philippines the enemy have not been able to push south through the Moluccans, as was his plan, the important bases of Menado and Ambon are still in allied hands as are the oil-producing cities of Balikpapan, Bandjermasin and Tarakan. The Dutch forces in these bases have now been heavily reinforced with the early forwarding of Australians, mainly from Africa and the Middle East, and US forces arriving from the West Coast. This was the strategy outlined to General Marshall by Eisenhower the same day he took up his job in the War Plans Office in Washington in the middle of December.

                          Malaya is lost but in Burma the Japanese have been stopped dead on Sittang River. They have taken Moulmein and are advancing west further north, supposedly to cut the south-north Burmese railway there but there are strong allied forces on the west side of the border, among them two Chinese divisions.

                          Sabang, on the northern tip of Sumatra has been expanded with the assistance of British forces, as has Padang on the central western coast of the island. Apart from these bases Sumatra is in enemy hands including the important city of Palembang. The western part of Java is occupied, the battle for Semarang has just started. Cocos and Christmas Islands in the Indian Ocean have recently been occupied by the enemy.

                          In Indo-China strong Chinese forces have reached the Red River east of Hanoi. The advance shall continue when reinforcements arrive. Otherwise it is give and take all through China.

                          New Britain and the north-eastern coast of Papua New Guinea are in enemy hands but only north-west of Madang. He is, however, creeping down The Solomons. Tulagi is being expanded as an allied base.

                          On fast ships, on their way to Southwest Pacific, are two US divisions, one Army and one Marine Corps.

                          Fred
                          Saving MacArthur - a book series - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ies_rw_dp_labf
                          River Wide, Ocean Deep - Operation Sealion - https://www.amazon.com/product-revie...owViewpoints=1

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by broderickwells View Post

                            Mr President, as your military advisors, we believe the US military is incapable of completing the task you have set us at this time with the assets we have. The Secretary for the Navy is seriously concerned over the state of the fleet since the attack on Pearl Harbour and in its current condition the Navy has little confidence of overcoming the full might of the IJN in the next six months. The Secretary for the Army doubts we have sufficient transport vessels to adequately reinforce the Philippines garrison, and in light of the admitted weakness of the Navy we are of the opinion that attempts to reinforce the Philippines garrison would be tantamount to marching the reinforcements into the sea. Nor do we have sufficient forward bases to maintain the security of our lines of communication. Any logistical support would be tenuous at best. If you persist in this reckless and harebrained scheme which will see the ruination of the US military in short order, we will have no option than to request your impeachment via the Senate and the HoR.
                            Impeachment is too long a process. Assassination might be your only option


                            By all means go ahead with the book, Fred. I'd recommend keeping the 'mindset of the times ' in view.

                            Joe Rochford, who broke the Japanese ciphered code in time to save Midway, was sacked for pointing out that a concentrated effort on the code breaking would have detected the Japanese invasion plans in time to mitigate some heavy losses. The effort was up against the Cordell Hull mentality that "Gentlemen do not read other Gentlemen's mail."

                            The Pentagon KYA operation was impressive. At least you kept your navy, which in 1935 in Canada was down to two -destroyers....
                            Last edited by marktwain; 12 Apr 19, 18:03.
                            The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by marktwain View Post
                              By all means go ahead with the book, Fred.
                              Oh, but I did - there are seven books on Amazon Kindle. The eight and last one has been ready for some time but I sort of have difficulties to let it go, as if an important part of my li(f)e should end....

                              https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ies_rw_dp_labf

                              I'd recommend keeping the 'mindset of the times ' in view.
                              If I did I couldn't have written this kind of book. Two of the pre-requisites were that the US had an aggressive leadership and a NAVY that didn't panic. She didn't have that.

                              Fred
                              Saving MacArthur - a book series - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ies_rw_dp_labf
                              River Wide, Ocean Deep - Operation Sealion - https://www.amazon.com/product-revie...owViewpoints=1

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                                I would opine that our Douglas would have had to send his wife and son back to the US when the rest of the dependents were evacuated. Large scale transfer of food stocks from Manila and the positioning of military supplies spread over Luzon instead of Bataan has to be modified. I would also close down any air bases in Manila and North into Luzon. Demolition of them would stop the Japanese from using them. We can fight from air strips built further South on Luzon. A better support base on Mindanao would have supported American and Philippine troops better.

                                Registration of construction equipment and vehicles would at least allow them to be used or disabled by the troops. Lastly a full scale upgrade of Quartermaster and POL vehicles for Luzon.

                                Pruitt
                                Great Point Pruitt!

                                The most damaging effect of MacArthur's plan was the dispersal of supplies from the Bataan and Corregidor strongholds. Once the invasion came, the resulting chaos and the poor communications

                                22


                                system made it impossible to re-create adequate depots to supply the fighting troops. Although the Philippine garrison held for just short of the planned six months, adequate supplies might have sustained a longer defense and would certainly have eased the suffering of the men on Bataan. Moreover, it is imperative to meet an invasion in the first critical hours before a beachhead is established, but MacArthur held his best troops, the Philippine Division, in reserve in the center of Luzon. The division was consequently unable to reach the landing sites in time to repulse the invaders, although it was in position to assist in the retreat to Bataan.



                                The position of MacArthur's forces on the eve of battle suggests that he was in a sense trying to follow both his new defensive plan and Plan ORANGE. It could be argued that his orders combined the least compatible elements of both. But in the larger view, neither plan really held out any hope for defeating the Japanese aggressors. The fact that the campaign in the Philippines showed so clearly that the United States was unprepared for war in December 1941 was perhaps its most important lesson.

                                https://history.army.mil/brochures/pi/PI.htm
                                The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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