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  • Saving MacArthur

    Hi, everybody! There is an actual thread on this site named: America decides to make the Philippines a priority
    In that thread’s pre-requisite quite a few improvements are made to the Philippine defense before the war starts. I would like to make a twist on that one – it goes like this: The war starts according to the situation in the Original Time Line but America decides to make the Philippines a priority in the sense that the US leadership, from the President down, is instilled with a totally different, aggressive, attitude than in the OTL. The Philippines are given top priority in every respect.

    This is based on a prewar analysis that the Japanese forces, as long as they still are engaged in China could only launch one other major offensive without overstretching themselves. Two days into the war it is clear they had overstretched themselves in attacking Malaya, The Philippines, Hong Kong and Wake in addition to the attack on Pearl Harbor, at the same time. Therefore, new attacks on Pearl Harbor or landings on the US mainland are discarded as improbable. On the other hand, The Philippines are seen as an important asset with its large garrison and, not the least, bases that eventually could be used for strangling the lifeline the Japanese, in starting the war, were struggling to build between Japan and the Dutch East Indies.

    We know what happened on the Philippines in the first period and that should not be touched. What can be touched is what happened outside the Philippines up till that time that eventual reinforcements or supplies start to arrive in the Philippines. Events taking place outside the Philippines during the eventual reinforcement period can influence the situation inside the Philippines as well. This goes for politics as well as redistribution of forces and assets. If such a US leadership and policy is probable or even possible, is beyond the scope of this thread and shall only be a detriment to its real purpose – the saving of the Philippines. To that effect I have named the thread Saving MacArthur.

    Having studied the subject somewhat I am of the opinion that it was not an impossible mission if the stated policy was followed relentlessly. And I repeat – if that was possible is not the subject of the discussion! It was! The subject should be what could be done with what – and how. This would imply, as an example, that no equipment or personnel already on their way, or planned, to the Philippines should be delayed or tinkered with. OTH, other, actual, resources could be added within reason decided by the main parameter – The Philippines have priority!

    I have prepared some documents which are written in the form “if-I should-write-a-book”, meant to illustrate or inspire the discussion. A link to one is posted below. I would also recommend getting the book: Racing the Sunrise by Glen Williford. It contains valuable information on what was on its way, or planned to go, to the Philippines when the war started.

    Go for it! Save MacArthur!

    Fred

    http://issuu.com/leandros1945/docs/c...833812/7833891

    Last edited by leandros; 13 May 14, 04:56.
    Saving MacArthur - a book series - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ies_rw_dp_labf
    River Wide, Ocean Deep - Operation Sealion - https://www.amazon.com/product-revie...owViewpoints=1

  • #2
    Nah. Saving General MacArthur is only a priority if he makes the blunder of not heading for Bataan and Corregidor Is.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
      Nah. Saving General MacArthur is only a priority if he makes the blunder of not heading for Bataan and Corregidor Is.
      I think having a former US Army Chief of Staff taken prisoner would be rather a bad idea.
      Hyperwar: World War II on the World Wide Web
      Hyperwar, Whats New
      World War II Resources
      The best place in the world to "work".

      Comment


      • #4
        Interesting idea

        Comment


        • #5
          I would opine that our Douglas would have had to send his wife and son back to the US when the rest of the dependents were evacuated. Large scale transfer of food stocks from Manila and the positioning of military supplies spread over Luzon instead of Bataan has to be modified. I would also close down any air bases in Manila and North into Luzon. Demolition of them would stop the Japanese from using them. We can fight from air strips built further South on Luzon. A better support base on Mindanao would have supported American and Philippine troops better.

          Registration of construction equipment and vehicles would at least allow them to be used or disabled by the troops. Lastly a full scale upgrade of Quartermaster and POL vehicles for Luzon.

          Pruitt
          Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

          Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

          by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

          Comment


          • #6
            Thank you, Pruitt - I had hoped that respondants would care to follow the pre-requisites stated in my opening post. That is why I put a little effort into it...

            What was done and not done, and should have been done, at the Philippines, has been discussed to death (for all I know has this subject, too..). My intention was that that side of the problem should not be touched, or only touched to the extent that events other than the OTL influenced on them.

            What should be of interest is what the outside world could have done differently. Please read my starting post. Appreciate your time.

            Fred

            Last edited by leandros; 14 May 14, 04:55.
            Saving MacArthur - a book series - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ies_rw_dp_labf
            River Wide, Ocean Deep - Operation Sealion - https://www.amazon.com/product-revie...owViewpoints=1

            Comment


            • #7
              Prerequisite added to this thread on May 14th:

              Seeing the trend in the response on the thread I believe I need to tighten it up a little. With the danger of being accused of megalomania I shall put it like this: I am the President of the US and I need proposals on how to relieve The Philippines before it falls. As the Supreme Commander I have the authority to approve or disapprove any proposals. Also to order specific operations by, or use of, US forces.

              Fred
              Saving MacArthur - a book series - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ies_rw_dp_labf
              River Wide, Ocean Deep - Operation Sealion - https://www.amazon.com/product-revie...owViewpoints=1

              Comment


              • #8
                Mr. President, the basic premise of the Japanese is that they can lure the US Fleet into a Great All-out Battle near their own bases. They believe their subs can attrite our forces until they reach parity and then superior IJN surface forces would destroy the USN in one decisive surface engagement. Based on that you can consider taking the Philippines to be as much bait as a strategic necessity.

                Therefore you have to decide if we're going to take that bait with our current resources. If you decide to do so we'll draw up plans for an advance into torpedo waters and also order a **** load of purple hearts.

                Respectfully,
                Chester Nimitz,
                Commander, US Pacific Fleet.
                Hyperwar: World War II on the World Wide Web
                Hyperwar, Whats New
                World War II Resources
                The best place in the world to "work".

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by OpanaPointer View Post
                  Mr. President, the basic premise of the Japanese is that they can lure the US Fleet into a Great All-out Battle near their own bases. They believe their subs can attrite our forces until they reach parity and then superior IJN surface forces would destroy the USN in one decisive surface engagement. Based on that you can consider taking the Philippines to be as much bait as a strategic necessity.

                  Therefore you have to decide if we're going to take that bait with our current resources. If you decide to do so we'll draw up plans for an advance into torpedo waters and also order a **** load of purple hearts.

                  Respectfully,
                  Chester Nimitz,
                  Commander, US Pacific Fleet.
                  The White House,
                  Washington.

                  December 10th 1941

                  Dear Admiral,

                  I appreciate your expedite response to my request. While I know you have been approached to take over as CO Pacific Fleet I have decided that Admiral Kimmell and General Strong are to continue in their present positions. This is not the time for scapegoats and breaks in the higher command structure. It is not only unpractical but also not good for the morale.

                  That said, I would like to extend an offer to you to come to Washington to act as my personal advisor on naval matters.

                  As to the content of your response I do not think that our primary goal now should be to destroy the Japanese main fleet as such, considering our present losses in Pearl Harbor that is obviously some time off. Therefore, for the moment no time or resources shall be spent on such plans.

                  Presently, the situation in the Philippines is such that our Air Force there has received a serious blow with great losses both in fighters and bombers and the naval installation at Cavite has received heavy damage from bombing. The Japanese has landed army forces on Northern Luzon, at Aparri, and Vigan, north of Lingayen Bay. The Asiatic Fleet has, or will shortly, withdraw to bases in the Dutch East Indies.

                  I have instructed that all transports on their way to the Philippines shall continue as planned, all are presently sailing a southern route to pass through the Torres Strait. The Anzac and Dutch East Indies authorities shall be approached via diplomatic channels if any assistance can be expected from them as to support in the relief of the Philippines or the securing of a Relief Route to same. We expect the British can contribute little in this respect as they are busy defending the Malayan Peninsula and have just recently lost two capital ships by Japanese arms. Both Australia and DEI are already supporting them in that defense.

                  I am considering withdrawing from the ABDA cooperation as we know it, to use all US resources in the effort to relieve the Philippines. If we succeed in this it shall undoubtedly contribute to the defense of the Malayan Barrier, too.

                  The Navy has been instructed, through Secretary Knox, to prepare for the transferal of a balanced carrier task force to the Asiatic Fleet. Heavy cruiser Pensacola shall transfer to the Asiatic fleet upon arrival in its operational area. The Army has, through Secretary Stimson, been advised to organize what army units are reasonably available for transferral to the Philippines.

                  Time is of the essence!

                  Looking forward to your expedite reply.

                  FDR

                  President of the United states
                  Saving MacArthur - a book series - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ies_rw_dp_labf
                  River Wide, Ocean Deep - Operation Sealion - https://www.amazon.com/product-revie...owViewpoints=1

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Congratulations, you just sank the USN.
                    Hyperwar: World War II on the World Wide Web
                    Hyperwar, Whats New
                    World War II Resources
                    The best place in the world to "work".

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by leandros View Post
                      Prerequisite added to this thread on May 14th:

                      Seeing the trend in the response on the thread I believe I need to tighten it up a little. With the danger of being accused of megalomania I shall put it like this: I am the President of the US and I need proposals on how to relieve The Philippines before it falls. As the Supreme Commander I have the authority to approve or disapprove any proposals. Also to order specific operations by, or use of, US forces.

                      Fred
                      Mr President, as your military advisors, we believe the US military is incapable of completing the task you have set us at this time with the assets we have. The Secretary for the Navy is seriously concerned over the state of the fleet since the attack on Pearl Harbour and in its current condition the Navy has little confidence of overcoming the full might of the IJN in the next six months. The Secretary for the Army doubts we have sufficient transport vessels to adequately reinforce the Philippines garrison, and in light of the admitted weakness of the Navy we are of the opinion that attempts to reinforce the Philippines garrison would be tantamount to marching the reinforcements into the sea. Nor do we have sufficient forward bases to maintain the security of our lines of communication. Any logistical support would be tenuous at best. If you persist in this reckless and harebrained scheme which will see the ruination of the US military in short order, we will have no option than to request your impeachment via the Senate and the HoR.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        PS, we only have six tankers that are fitted out for underway replenishment, so the force is limited in size. That is, if you want them back for use later.
                        Hyperwar: World War II on the World Wide Web
                        Hyperwar, Whats New
                        World War II Resources
                        The best place in the world to "work".

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by OpanaPointer View Post
                          PS, we only have six tankers that are fitted out for underway replenishment, so the force is limited in size. That is, if you want them back for use later.
                          December 12th 1941

                          The White House,
                          Washington

                          Dear Chester,

                          I appreciate your concern. I was not aware we had that many of this type immediately available. Are they immediately available? I would appreciate very much if you could list the whereabouts of the various tankers. Also, what is available in the Atlantic.

                          That said, you should not worry too much about the immediate need for tankers as my intention, in time, is to make use of Australian and Dutch sources for such a purpose, provided we are able to get their cooperation in the manner we want. Of course, the need for such vessels shall certainly arise shortly but presently the important question is what we can send immediately of fighting vessels and what they can bring with them. If these forces are composed in a balanced way cruisers can refill destroyers. Anyway, the cruisers normally have a range exceeding 10.000 NM and destroyers approx. 5.000 NM on economic cruise. The distance from Pearl to NE of Darwin is approx. 5.000 NM going through the Torres Strait.

                          Since my message to you of December 10th we have received a response from Admiral Kimmel and General Strong on Oahu. The Admiral has called back the Enterprise Task Force, it is already in Pearl, with the purpose of dispatching it to Australia. With it shall go the heavy cruisers Northampton, Chester and four destroyers. He might be able to raise a couple of Marines companies, too. General Strong has indicated that he can release a battalion group of 19th/24th infantry division. They are also looking over the inventory if they can release some army fighters to go with the Enterprise.

                          I am looking forward to your early reply.

                          Time is of the essence!

                          FDR

                          President of the United States



                          Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
                          Mr President, as your military advisors, we believe the US military is incapable of completing the task you have set us at this time with the assets we have. The Secretary for the Navy is seriously concerned over the state of the fleet since the attack on Pearl Harbour and in its current condition the Navy has little confidence of overcoming the full might of the IJN in the next six months. The Secretary for the Army doubts we have sufficient transport vessels to adequately reinforce the Philippines garrison, and in light of the admitted weakness of the Navy we are of the opinion that attempts to reinforce the Philippines garrison would be tantamount to marching the reinforcements into the sea. Nor do we have sufficient forward bases to maintain the security of our lines of communication. Any logistical support would be tenuous at best. If you persist in this reckless and harebrained scheme which will see the ruination of the US military in short order, we will have no option than to request your impeachment via the Senate and the HoR.
                          December 12th 1941

                          The White House,
                          Washington.

                          Dear Brody,

                          I understand you have not been informed on the latest decisions made by the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Secretaries of War and Navy on my instigation. The relief of the Philippines shall have top priority, above all others. Time is of the essence! The Senate and House of Representatives have been informed of my decision and did applaud it enthusiastically, which is not surprising considering the strong emotions of the citizens of the United States at this time.

                          I would be happy to have you here in Washington as an advisor for this noble purpose. However, if this is agreeable you need to align to the decisions already made by me and my staff as put forth in my previous postings

                          I am looking forward to your loyal cooperation.

                          Time is of the essence!

                          FDR

                          President of the United States

                          P.S.: This could be an interesting exercise.


                          General information: Below is a link to a document which could have been written by an author describing the actual meeting mentioned above:

                          http://issuu.com/leandros1945/docs/c...833812/7877538
                          Saving MacArthur - a book series - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ies_rw_dp_labf
                          River Wide, Ocean Deep - Operation Sealion - https://www.amazon.com/product-revie...owViewpoints=1

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics.

                            I'm not sure how many of the OZ and Dutch tankers were set up for unrep with the USN.
                            Hyperwar: World War II on the World Wide Web
                            Hyperwar, Whats New
                            World War II Resources
                            The best place in the world to "work".

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by leandros View Post
                              The White House,
                              Washington.

                              December 10th 1941

                              Dear Admiral,

                              I appreciate your expedite response to my request. While I know you have been approached to take over as CO Pacific Fleet I have decided that Admiral Kimmell and General Strong are to continue in their present positions. This is not the time for scapegoats and breaks in the higher command structure. It is not only unpractical but also not good for the morale.

                              That said, I would like to extend an offer to you to come to Washington to act as my personal advisor on naval matters.

                              As to the content of your response I do not think that our primary goal now should be to destroy the Japanese main fleet as such, considering our present losses in Pearl Harbor that is obviously some time off. Therefore, for the moment no time or resources shall be spent on such plans.

                              Presently, the situation in the Philippines is such that our Air Force there has received a serious blow with great losses both in fighters and bombers and the naval installation at Cavite has received heavy damage from bombing. The Japanese has landed army forces on Northern Luzon, at Aparri, and Vigan, north of Lingayen Bay. The Asiatic Fleet has, or will shortly, withdraw to bases in the Dutch East Indies.

                              I have instructed that all transports on their way to the Philippines shall continue as planned, all are presently sailing a southern route to pass through the Torres Strait. The Anzac and Dutch East Indies authorities shall be approached via diplomatic channels if any assistance can be expected from them as to support in the relief of the Philippines or the securing of a Relief Route to same. We expect the British can contribute little in this respect as they are busy defending the Malayan Peninsula and have just recently lost two capital ships by Japanese arms. Both Australia and DEI are already supporting them in that defense.

                              I am considering withdrawing from the ABDA cooperation as we know it, to use all US resources in the effort to relieve the Philippines. If we succeed in this it shall undoubtedly contribute to the defense of the Malayan Barrier, too.

                              The Navy has been instructed, through Secretary Knox, to prepare for the transferal of a balanced carrier task force to the Asiatic Fleet. Heavy cruiser Pensacola shall transfer to the Asiatic fleet upon arrival in its operational area. The Army has, through Secretary Stimson, been advised to organize what army units are reasonably available for transferral to the Philippines.

                              Time is of the essence!

                              Looking forward to your expedite reply.

                              FDR

                              President of the United states
                              Are you crazy, the Torres Straits is the last place i'd be sending transports through it is bloody dangerous, virtually unmapped until the 1990's and even then dangerous tidal influences can dash ships on coral reefs before the captains have a chance to do anything about it. Even moderns ships with underwater navigation still require pilot assistance to pass through safely.

                              It is a friggen bottleneck allowing one ship to pass at a time. Perfect target practice for the IJN aircraft.

                              This how if this was in-acted you'd lose those transports.

                              Comment

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