Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Germany takes all of Poland

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Even accepting the unlikely event that Stalin does not react to Germany's invasion of Poland and the USSR continues providing Germany with grain, etc, Barbarossa would have occured quite similarly, since more Soviet troops would have arrived in the fortified cities and areas (Minsk, Kiev, Smolensk, Tula, Kharkov, Sevastopol, Rostov, Leningrad, Stalin line, etc,) during their retreat and capturing them would have taken even longer and cost more casualties.
    Barbarossa simply cannot succeed with the ridiculous numbers of planes, tanks, cannon, etc, diluted over an extremely long front. The only chance for Germany is to concentrate the tanks and planes in offensives along the Baltic and from Finland and along the Black Sea from Romania and from Iran and advance along the Caucasus and the East coast of the Caspian Sea towards the Chromium mines of Aktobe and then Magitogorsk, Tankograd and Nizhni Tagil.
    Unless Stalin losses access to Murmansk, Iran, the oil of the Caucasus, the industry in the Urals, etc, Germany cannot even hope to win the war, especially with Hitler telling his experts how to proceed, changing objectives and plans on a whim.

    Hitler obliged the British by attacking Britain and losing his planes, he then obliged Stalin by always attacking the strongest points, wasting invaluable time and resources to capture hudreds of thousands of men, without achieving strategic gains. He never understood that Blitzkrieg meant advancing fast, bypassing strong but useless points, in order to capture weaker but vital points.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Javaman View Post
      Yes there are numerous open issues, I just went with the OP at face value as though those issues were otherwise resolved along the same lines as the OTL (however that may have been done). Always the trouble with ATLs.
      Looks like TAG's not offering any direction on what the diplomatic conditions are.

      In the OTL, iirc Stalin was caught sort of flat-footed by the rapid advance of the Germans, which is part of the reason why the Red Army's performance was less than sparkling when it invaded Poland in mid-September.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Draco View Post
        ... he then obliged Stalin by always attacking the strongest points, wasting invaluable time and resources to capture hudreds of thousands of men, without achieving strategic gains. He never understood that Blitzkrieg meant advancing fast, bypassing strong but useless points, in order to capture weaker but vital points.
        Uh, sorry. Do you really believe generals always fortify and make strong points that are useless?

        It is one thing to bypass a strong point whose purpose is to prevent your passage. Once you have passed beyond it - and only then - yes, that strongpoint becomes useless. This would apply to a fortified area like Brest. And even then, by holding it the enemy if forcing you to take a longer road and denying you a crossroads of roads, rail lines and bridges, which delays your advance, so even that forlorn resistance is not entirely "useless" as you believe.

        But Kiev is in entirely another class than Brest. Bagging the Ukraine means bagging the breadbasket of Eastern Europe. It also comes with the Donbass coal and iron mines, and some minor oil fields. Germany was in the East for the Lebensraum, and by that Hitler did not mean some swamps and fir forests around Leningrad; he meant resourceful regions. Capturing that area as soon as possible meant having something to feed the Ostheer's men and horses with. It's far from "useless".
        Michele

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
          Let's assume that Hitler doesn't make Stalin aware of the impending invasion of Poland and invades taking the entire country of Poland to the pre-war Russian - Polish border.
          WW 2 then goes much as it did up to the invasion of Russia. At this point the Germans invade from the 1939 Polish-Russian border some 250 to 300 miles closer to Moscow, Leningrad, etc.

          I would say in this case the Russians lose the war. The difference in distance is sufficient on its own to allow the Germans to take Leningrad and Moscow. The Stalin Line of fortifications on the border are not going to be sufficient to make a substantial difference and the Red Army's performance is not going to improve over historical.

          Hmmn, well the Molotov-Ribbentropp Pact is far less likely to have happened, and Germany's Armies would have had less to no time to R&R before being launched against the vastness of numbers and distance that is Russia/USSR. Yes, if Germany had attacked earlier then it would have had more time before General Mud and General Winter put in a serious appearance. Perhaps, against that, the Russian politicos and military might have been better prepared? Hitler was always mindful at least to some degree, of a troublesome unfinished 'western front'.

          Comment


          • #20
            The Stalin Line, the fortifications on the Soviet border were partially dismantled for the new border with Greater Germany , called the Molotov Line.

            It wasn't ready in 1941.

            So in this ATL, an upgraded Stalin Line must be taken into planning for Barbarossa

            https://web.archive.org/web/20110303.../lines1941.htm

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Marathag View Post
              The Stalin Line, the fortifications on the Soviet border were partially dismantled for the new border with Greater Germany , called the Molotov Line.

              It wasn't ready in 1941.

              So in this ATL, an upgraded Stalin Line must be taken into planning for Barbarossa

              https://web.archive.org/web/20110303.../lines1941.htm
              Well yes. The OP stated that he thinks it won't matter.
              I am also considering the initial catch in the highly undefensible Bialystok bulge. Those same - good - units will be available to the Krasnaya Armia, but in a way less exposed deployment.
              Michele

              Comment


              • #22
                The Soviet had 3 defensive lines that were widely separated and fell piece meal to the rapidly advancing Germans. In this scenario the 3 lines are much closer to each other and can support each other much better. All 3 defensive lines have large numbers of heavily fortified areas, which wasn't the case in the long Polish front in the real case.
                All units are closer to Moscow, Kharkiv, Leningrad and Kiev, so they can be resupplied after the Germans destroy their border depots in the invasion.

                Comment

                Latest Topics

                Collapse

                Working...
                X