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  • Japan sides with the allies in 1941

    After losing large numbers of troops in China, in 1941 Japan accepts Rossevelt's offer to lift sanctions and provide financial help and withdraws from China and Indochina, but retains Manchuria, Korea and Formosa.

    Japan joins Britain and the USSR and declares war on Germany, Romania and Italy on Dec 1, 1941, with the promise of receiving the Italian colonies and Soviet Sakhalin and Mongolia. The Japanese fleet moves into the Indian Ocean and allows the RN, USN and RAN to concentrate on the Atlantic. All the British carriers with Wildcats escort British convoys to Malta. 500 Japanese army and naval fighters and 200 dive bombers arrive in the Caucasus through Iran and attack the German and Romanian forces in the Black Sea, promptly eliminating the German bombers in the area and preventing the invasion of Crimea.
    The US does not declare war on Germany and Italy, but increases production considerably, providing the Soviets, British and Japanese with plenty of fuel, explosives, etc, and a large numbers of Wildcats, P-40s, P-38s, B-25, B-26s, tanks, trucks, etc, warship construction is slowed considerably, in favor of airplanes and tanks

  • #2
    I can't see them side to side with the USSR.

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    • #3
      They have big casualties against woeful China, but think they can survive Germany and Italy assaults?
      The 109s and new Focke Wulfs would slaughter the Japanese Zeros.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Tascosa View Post
        They have big casualties against woeful China, but think they can survive Germany and Italy assaults?
        The 109s and new Focke Wulfs would slaughter the Japanese Zeros.
        They had casualties fighting millions of Chinese in a large area, where infantry ruled and fighters and warships often were little use.

        In Dec 1941 the LW had lost by far most of its planes and pilots. Soviet pilots had poor training and tactics, while Japanese pilots were much better. German bombers did a lot of damage to the Soviet Black Sea fleet, the Japanese long range fighters would have decimated the bombers, which often could not be escorted by the short range German fighters.

        Kleist's offensive in 1942 into the Caucasus was met initially mostly by biplane fighters, German dive bombers would have made a big difference.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Draco View Post
          They had casualties fighting millions of Chinese in a large area, where infantry ruled and fighters and warships often were little use.

          In Dec 1941 the LW had lost by far most of its planes and pilots. Soviet pilots had poor training and tactics, while Japanese pilots were much better. German bombers did a lot of damage to the Soviet Black Sea fleet, the Japanese long range fighters would have decimated the bombers, which often could not be escorted by the short range German fighters.

          Kleist's offensive in 1942 into the Caucasus was met initially mostly by biplane fighters, German dive bombers would have made a big difference.
          The terrain of the Caucasus suited the performance characteristics of bi- and sesquiplane designs. While most of European Russia is flat, these are the highest mountains in Europe. The I-153 had a distinct advantage over monoplanes here.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
            The terrain of the Caucasus suited the performance characteristics of bi- and sesquiplane designs. While most of European Russia is flat, these are the highest mountains in Europe. The I-153 had a distinct advantage over monoplanes here.
            Monoplanes had higher ceilings and longer ranges than underpowered biplanes with an open cockpit. The I-153 was used extensively because it was available in large numbers after the LW decimated the Soviet air force and because at times Kleist had no LW support, since it was supporting Paulus. As soon as modern American twin engine bombers arrived, they were used extensively and most succesfully in the Caucasus and Black Sea. The I-153 was heavy for a biplane (compared to the Gladiator, CR.42, etc,), because it had a retractable landing gear.
            The Soviets didn't have enough tanks either in the Caucasus and were saved by American and British tanks arriving through Iran.
            Last edited by Draco; 03 Apr 14, 09:25.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Redwolf View Post
              I can't see them side to side with the USSR.
              I agree. I could see Japan staying out of the war, particularly if the Navy faction held onto power (the Army revolt and overthrow of the government fails with the leaders committing suicide). With a withdrawal in China and Japan holding Manchukuo, Korea, Formosa, and other similar holdings they embark instead on a policy of appeasing the US to the extent they can while building economic power.
              One way they do that is "Japanize" their colonial holdings. That is, they switch schools to teaching Japanese only. Encourage Nisei to return to Japan and her colonies by offers of land and economic assistance. This means over time that these areas lose their historical culture and become Japanese as well.

              As a "neutral" Japan plays both sides in Europe. They have intrigues with the Allies and Axis alike. As the US would likely be drawn into the war eventually, just like WW 1, Japan bides its time until the US enters and a clear winner is visible. Then Japan jumps in militarily to aid the "winning" side.

              That way they cement their colonial holdings and in the post war era become the economic powerhouse of Asia and a continental power.

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              • #8
                What if the Japanese offered to exploit the "Northern Resources Area" and give Stalin the bulk of the materials extracted? Say 75-25 split? Stalin's people are freed up to do other things and the Japanese get things they need, and no chance of war over Manchuria. And, of course, we can count on both parties not to pull a fast one after the war.
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by OpanaPointer View Post
                  What if the Japanese offered to exploit the "Northern Resources Area" and give Stalin the bulk of the materials extracted? Say 75-25 split? Stalin's people are freed up to do other things and the Japanese get things they need, and no chance of war over Manchuria. And, of course, we can count on both parties not to pull a fast one after the war.
                  Certainly, Japan, Britain, China and the USSR could have benefitted greatly from each other, especially with all of them receiving copious L-L, while Germany. Romania and Italy lose bombers, pilots, ships, tanks, fuel production, etc, even more rapidly than they did in 1942.
                  Japan with American planes, aluminum, oil, explosives, food, tanks, etc, would have been extremely helpful to stop the axis on its tracks in the spring of 1942. Japanese generals were far superior to British generals and would have helped considerably to invade Sicily and Crete, eliminating the need to fight in Egypt and allowing bombing of Ploesti. With Japanese help, Sicily and Crete could have been invaded early in 1942, knocking Italy out of the war over a year earlier, stopping oil production in Ploesti, Albania, Hungary, Poland and Austria (with the British using Lancasters and the Japanese flying B-17s and B-24s from the Crimea, Italy and Crete) and weakening the LW before Speer increased production of planes and synthetic fuel.
                  With the war over in early 1944, Japan would have thrived with the resources or Libya, former IEA, Albania, the Dodecanese, Manchuria, Mongolia, Korea, Sakhalin and Formosa.
                  Last edited by Draco; 03 Apr 14, 13:01.

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                  • #10
                    In the scenario I posted China and Japan wouldn't need Lease-Lend because they wouldn't be at war. Not with each other, anyway.

                    Here's a fun idea: Japan backs Mao in China in exchange for major commercial benefits. Japan agrees to help China update their infrastructure and China gives them some damn thing...
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by OpanaPointer View Post
                      In the scenario I posted China and Japan wouldn't need Lease-Lend because they wouldn't be at war. Not with each other, anyway.

                      Here's a fun idea: Japan backs Mao in China in exchange for major commercial benefits. Japan agrees to help China update their infrastructure and China gives them some damn thing...
                      Japan is at war with the axis and Chiang is at war with Mao and induced to declare war on the axis also (in exchange for L-L) So the RN and the Japanese navy and army (under Yamashita invade Sicily in Feb-March 1942) and the RN, the Japanese navy and the Chinese army under general Xue in Crete (quite capable, invade Crete in March-April)
                      Italy's capitulation after the fall of Sicily deprives Hitler of hundreds of thousands of men to replenish the massive losses of Barbarossa and the spring campaign and forces Hitler to send some urgently needed troops, planes and tanks from the east to Italy.
                      The Japanese, British and Chinese invade eastern Greece in May 1942 and occupy Bulgaria and Ploesti, threatening Germany from the southern flank and depriving it of its main oil source. Romania and Hungary capitulate with the loss of Ploesti, leaving Germany alone.
                      Last edited by Draco; 03 Apr 14, 13:19.

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                      • #12
                        Japanese troops fought well in Malaya, the Philippines, etc, despite having no trucks or submachine guns, lousy MGs and tanks and no armored, ground attack planes (the Zeros, Ki-27, Ki-43, etc, were extremely vulnerable and could carry a small bomb load), self propelled artillery, etc,
                        Using Thompsons, American .30 and .50 cal. MGs, M-1 Garand, Self propelled 5" guns, Grant, Stewart and Sherman tanks, P-40s, P-38s, Wildcats, B-17, 24, 25 and 26, etc, and plenty of trucks, they would have performed very well against Italian and a few German troops in Sicily. The invasion of Sicily would have isolated Rommel completely in Libya, rendering a large Italian and German force completely useless.
                        Yamashita cut off the British forces in Malaya by invading from the north and then performed multiple, outflanking landings and would have done the same in Sicily, trapping and capturing the whole army, instead of allowing it to scape, as the Allies did in 1943.

                        The same is true of Xue's troops, who had to fight the Japanese with extremely little and poor armament and ammo and no trucks, tanks, planes, etc,. With plenty of armament, ammo, food, naval and air support, etc, Xue's troops would have fought very well in Crete.

                        Germany's production was ridiculous and losses extremely high in early 1942, it simply could not afford to face an agrressive offensive in the Med.
                        Last edited by Draco; 03 Apr 14, 14:29.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Draco View Post
                          Japanese troops fought well in Malaya, the Philippines, etc, despite having no trucks or submachine guns, lousy MGs and tanks and no armored, ground attack planes (the Zeros, Ki-27, Ki-43, etc, were extremely vulnerable and could carry a small bomb load), self propelled artillery, etc,
                          Using Thompsons, American .30 and .50 cal. MGs, M-1 Garand, Self propelled 5" guns, Grant, Stewart and Sherman tanks, P-40s, P-38s, Wildcats, etc, and plenty of trucks, they would have performed very well against Italian and a few German troops in SIcily. The invasion of Sicily would have isolated Rommel completely in Libya, rendering a large Italian and German force completely useless.
                          .
                          Actually, they would not.

                          Firstly, the IJA leadership was far too arrogant to accept US equipment, Secondly, such equipment was not compatible with the IJA doctrine. The IJA missed out on the experiences of WW1, and are a evolutionary design based more upon their war with Russia, their operational area (Pacific, Pacific rim), and their industrial limitations.
                          Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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                          • #14
                            The Japanese bought American technology as much as possible. The planes that bombed Pearl Harbor had American radios. The Betty used the Hamilton-Standard 4 blade propeller, built in Japan under license. Having access to almost unlimited, free American armament, ammo, fuel, vehicles, etc, they would have certainly used them, and quite capably.

                            Their tactics in early 1942 were better than the British, Soviet, Italian and American tactics, using planes and naval support remarkably well. They had to use bicycles in Malaya, but would have thrived with American trucks, prefab bridges, self propelled guns, good tanks, etc,
                            Japanese MGs and rifles were not only poor performers, they were a logistics nightmare. They used several types of cartridge (rimmed, semirimmed, 6.5 mm, 7.7 mm, etc,).
                            Having millions of .30-06 rounds for all the guns and .45 rounds for pistols and the Thompsons would have simplified everything and rendered tham far more lethal. Their Nambo pistol used a ridiculous cartridge and had a lousy mechanism. They would have also used the Bazooka in late 1942 extremely well with their aggressive tactics.
                            They used levels bombers very effectively, despite their sights being much inferior to the Norton sight. They would have thrived with AMerican medium and heavy bombers, with Japanese long lance torpedoes, American bombs, Napalm, etc,

                            Japanese paratroppers and airborne troops from Malta with plenty of Dakota's and armament and supported by P-38s, etc, would also have been useful invading Sicily.
                            Last edited by Draco; 03 Apr 14, 14:49.

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                            • #15
                              Why would Japan be getting Lend Lease material?
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