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No Panzer III in WW2

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  • No Panzer III in WW2

    The Panzer III is never adopted as the main medium tank as firms dedicated to its construction are now tooled to towards making Panzer IVs. (both tanks were historically around the same cost).

    Instead the Panzer IV outfits all four companies of a Panzer battalion instead of only 1 in 1941.

    The Panzer IV in this alternate history is expected to fight other tanks rather than just shoot up soft targets with a L/24. So instead of the Panzer III getting long 50mm, the Panzer IVs are equipped with long 75mm guns by 1941.

    What happens afterwards??
    Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
    Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
    Barbarossa Derailed I & II
    Battle of Kalinin October 1941

  • #2
    No Panzer III - France doesn't fall.

    With no way to get the Panzer IV into service in numbers, the swarms of Panzer I and II, along with the Czech tanks, provide a target-rich environment for the Allies.

    The Handful of Panzer IVs available in 1940 are simply overwhelmed, Rommel's, 'Ghost Division,' is wiped out by the French returning from the slaughter in Belgium which obliterated most of the German army, and the Armee de l'Aire gains enough time to produce enough D.520s to deny the Luftwaffe air superiority.

    Game over !
    Indyref2 - still, "Yes."

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    • #3
      I was thinking more along the lines of the Panzer IV replacing the Panzer III in WW2...and the cascade effect it would have on combat and tank development.
      Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
      Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
      Barbarossa Derailed I & II
      Battle of Kalinin October 1941

      Comment


      • #4
        I doubt that they were thinking to equip the Pz IV with long 75mm gun prior the encounter with the British and French tanks. Probably they would have been equipped in part with 50mm long guns like Pz III get.
        There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

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        • #5
          It would be certain, at least, that the Panzer IV, baring shortages, would not be armed with the L/24 but something higher velocity.
          Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
          Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
          Barbarossa Derailed I & II
          Battle of Kalinin October 1941

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
            It would be certain, at least, that the Panzer IV, baring shortages, would not be armed with the L/24 but something higher velocity.
            Part with this gun, part with 37mm gun in anti-tank version.
            There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

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            • #7
              A change: I'm thinking 37mm during the 1939-1940 campaigns with one company armed with the L/24. And then production of longer barreled 75 that's long but not as long (Shorter than the 1942 L/43) after France.

              Either that or there is a medium length 75mm that replaces the 37mm and L/24 just in time for WW2. This gun will be close to the T-34/76's gun and lack the penetration abilities of the L/43 and L/48.

              The long barreled 50mm tank guns would not be fitted or produced.

              For the invasion of the USSR, this medium 75mm would be the main gun of the IV.
              Last edited by Cult Icon; 31 Mar 14, 16:59.
              Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
              Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
              Barbarossa Derailed I & II
              Battle of Kalinin October 1941

              Comment


              • #8
                A lack of an afv to counter the T-34 and KV-1 did not stop the German army nearly reaching Moscow. Tanks are certainly not the most important element of an army in defeating the enemy. I more than suspect that the chief value of tanks in WW2 is about effecting morale, rather than its direct impact on the battlefield. The mere appearance of the T-34 appears to at least partially confirm this.
                How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
                  It would be certain, at least, that the Panzer IV, baring shortages, would not be armed with the L/24 but something higher velocity.
                  It didn't exist. They could use a 50mm gun. the long 75mm tube did not appear until after they met the T-34.

                  Regards
                  Scott Fraser
                  Ignorance is not the lack of knowledge. It is the refusal to learn.

                  A contentedly cantankerous old fart

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                  • #10
                    I know. The idea is that they would design a medium length 75mm instead of the long barreled 50mm they installed in the Panzer III before Barbarrossa. They would not have faced the T-34, so guns as potent as the L/43-48 were unlikely to have ordered.

                    In France, the deficiencies of the L/24 against French tanks were well known and the P4 company were used against soft targets while the other 3 panzer companies were the ones that dealt with other tanks.
                    Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                    Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                    Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                    Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thinking something along the lines of a 75mmL35?

                      I'd tend to agree that it's more likely that the Panzer IVs get equipped with a 50mm gun instead of a medium-length 75mm gun. I'd forsee no 37mm gun, but rather a 50mm gun being seen as a 'balance' between having some HE capability along with AP.
                      Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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                      • #12
                        yea, something like a L/35.

                        The original Panzer III's in Poland/France were mostly equipped with 37mm guns before they were rearmed with the 50mm before Barbarossa. Ammunition standardization with Panzer 38ts, Panzerjaeger battalions of the Wehr, etc. had something to with the choice (37mm pak).

                        I pretty much am inclined to think that they will ignore the 50mm longs and just do a 75mm medium. They would use the same ammunition as the L/24.

                        This means that as the Panzers attack the SU, they will experience the shock of fighting T-34s and KVs with a more up-gradable tank.

                        Historically, the 50mm L/60 , 75mm L/43 and then the 75mm L/48 appeared in the spring of 1942 so I can see a partial upgunning of the Panzer IV fleet in time for Case Blue with the long 75mm.

                        I am not sure of the Soviet response though, and whether or not they would react by trying to get the T-34/85 faster into the field.
                        Last edited by Cult Icon; 01 Apr 14, 13:30.
                        Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                        Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                        Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                        Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
                          A change: I'm thinking 37mm during the 1939-1940 campaigns with one company armed with the L/24. And then production of longer barreled 75 that's long but not as long (Shorter than the 1942 L/43) after France.

                          Either that or there is a medium length 75mm that replaces the 37mm and L/24 just in time for WW2. This gun will be close to the T-34/76's gun and lack the penetration abilities of the L/43 and L/48.

                          The long barreled 50mm tank guns would not be fitted or produced.

                          For the invasion of the USSR, this medium 75mm would be the main gun of the IV.
                          You can have what you want, if you massage the givens of the OTL enough.
                          I remind you that the KwK 40 did not get into service until 1942 in the OTL.
                          Development history KwK 40:
                          PaK 38 (50 mm) through PaK 40 (75 mm) becomes your KwK 40 (75 mm) But you can have the KwK 39 50 mm long 60 in 1941 as per OTL.
                          Btw the KwK 39 was also developed from the PaK 38 (50 mm).
                          So to be true to the development gestation of the KwK 40 OTL one can unlikely skip the development of both the PaK 38, PaK 40 and possibly neither the KwK 39.

                          Ed.
                          Last edited by dutched; 01 Apr 14, 18:35.
                          The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

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                          • #14
                            I agree with those saying the 37mm on most vehicles. I could see the Germans contemplating putting the short 50mm on by late 1940 in place of the 37mm.
                            So, in the grand scope of things it really would make zero difference or close to it.

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                            • #15
                              If the Pz iV had been intended to fight other tanks, it might have been attractive to fit a higher velocity gun if one were available. Interestingly, there was one being produced by Krupp for export to Brazil http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.5_cm_FK_38 and I suspect that an attempt might be made to fit it to the Pz iV.

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