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China & North Korea Vs. South Korea, Taiwan, Japan and Philippines 2014

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  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Originally posted by Draco View Post
    Intelligence is a bitch.
    Hitler had no clue about the large numbers of T-34s and KV-1 (about the same number of PZ III and IV he had), nor even the true number of Soviet divisions or the existence of Katyushas or 76 mm AT guns before Barbarossa.
    Yea, Hitler should have listened to Warner Von Braun earlier and built that space station. He could have had killer spy satellites and SS space marines if he did...


    The US had no clue about huge Yamato until it was too late,
    Too late for what? The Yamato participated in one surface naval action during the war. The second time it was at sea in combat it was on a suicide mission and the US Navy used it for target practice.


    ...the whereabouts of a large fleet before Pearl Harbor, the battle of the bulge or the thousands of Jap planes in caves ready to be used as Kamikazes during the invasion of the mainland. Hell they didn't even know about hundreds of Muslim terrorists preparing in American pilot schools.
    The US wasn't without knowledge of those things entirely. Intelligence failures happen, and not just to the US. On the other hand you are selling non-sense. You us to believe that somehow the Chinese can load bunches of civilian airliners pulled from regular service and then fly these such that they all land at disparate international airports all over Southeast Asia simultaneously. The same goes for the cargo ships.
    You really don't have a clue about how things work do you? Today, anyone can track commercial flights real time.

    http://flightaware.com/

    And do the same with maritime shipping.

    http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/home/

    If you think your teenage wet dream plan is realistic...


    How can Intelligence know if the Chinese have 10,000 fighters, attack helicopters and transport helicopters underground?
    Because they have to be manufactured first...

    The Russians appear to have the best intelligence (they informed Clinton about Obama, etc,). But if they decide to allow the Chinese to expand to the east and South, that intelligence will not reach Japan, Taiwan or the Philippines.
    So our resident expert tells us....

    Leave a comment:


  • johns624
    replied
    The marines had mostly .30 cal MGs to defend Midway (as can be seen in Ford's film), although there were a lot of .50 cal guns in the useless B-17s. I would have had at least 100 .50 cal guns there and no .30 cal toys.
    In the Yamamoto vs Nimitz thread, you say that the Marines had mostly ineffective .30cal MG's.


    Originally posted by Draco View Post
    Japan had lost a lot of planes and scarce pilots in the Coral Sea (and PH, DEI, Philippines, Ceylon, etc,) and was not even building Kates and Vals and had few left. It is absurd to send them to bomb an island. Japanese planes had no armor nor self sealing fuel tanks, why use them for bombing and strafing an island with plenty of AAA and MGs?
    Yet here, you claim that Midway has "plenty of AA and MGs". Which one is it.
    PS-Cut out the tequila, it's affecting your cognitive thinking...

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  • Draco
    replied
    Originally posted by johns624 View Post
    What could the BB's and CA's have done. The only thing the carriers were vulnerable to were American planes. Their added AA fire wouldn't have been enough to make a difference.
    Japan had lost a lot of planes and scarce pilots in the Coral Sea (and PH, DEI, Philippines, Ceylon, etc,) and was not even building Kates and Vals and had few left. It is absurd to send them to bomb an island. Japanese planes had no armor nor self sealing fuel tanks, why use them for bombing and strafing an island with plenty of AAA and MGs? in the process exposing the Jap carriers to the 500 lb bombs and torpedoes from the Island, which can sink a carrier but not Yamato.
    You use the Jap planes only to sink carriers and use 8" to 18" guns to blast Midway, beyond range of the 5" coastal artillery, in the process eliminating the planes in Midway and attracting some of the US carrier planes away from Jap CVs.

    The weak Japanese wave of 108 planes (weak Darwin was bombed by 188 planes, also from 4 carriers) that bombed Midway lost several planes and did not destroy the landing strip or the American bombers, but left the Jap carriers vulnerable while they retrieved the planes. The failure to destroy the landing strip induced Nagumo to remove torpedoes and AP bombs and arm the planes with HE bombs, dooming his fleet. All this would have ben avoided had the extremely expensive Yamato, etc, been used, instead fo just sailing from Japan to Midway and back without doing anything other than burning recious fuel. Although the Japs had fuel in Borneo, etc, they could not transport it to Japan, because the USN subs sank the tankers, so they had little fuel in Japan.

    A final remark on the subject, had the B-17s in Midway dropped a 6,000 lb HE bomb on the carriers from 5,000 ft, even near hits would have sunk any carrier. They used smaller bombs, hoping to hit them from high altitude and they never worked. Mitchell used 2,000 lb bombs from biplanes to sink a battleship.


    lets get back to China
    Last edited by Draco; 01 Mar 14, 13:38.

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  • marktwain
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    South Africa has those? I mean what could be worse than Zulus riding sharks with laser beams on their heads!
    China collapsing the Bitcoin, sending the world back into the dark ages...

    Leave a comment:


  • johns624
    replied
    Originally posted by Draco View Post
    What's the logic of leaving behind heavily armored BBs and CAs with lots of scout planes and sending in the vanguard the invaluable and vulnerable CVs?
    What could the BB's and CA's have done? The only thing the carriers were vulnerable to were American planes. Their added AA fire wouldn't have been enough to make a difference.
    Last edited by johns624; 01 Mar 14, 13:04.

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  • Draco
    replied
    Originally posted by johns624 View Post
    The Catalinas with their much longer range would find the Japanese fleet first...just like they did in real life.
    The Americans already know from what direction the Japs are comming and at what time (intelligence), it's surprising that the Catalinas took off so late and found them so late.

    The Japs had few scout planes and precisely the one that found the carriers left late, because of malfunctions. The first Jap wave was wasted bombing Midway, before the American carrier planes attacked the Jap carriers. In this case the 1 wave is ready with torpedoes and AP bombs. Had all the scout planes of the capital ships (some CAs had 6 or 7 planes) searched the area as they approached Midway, the American fleet would have been found sooner. By separating the fleet, Yamamoto could not use dozens of scout planes to look for US carriers.

    What's the logic of leaving behind heavily armored BBs and CAs with lots of scout planes and sending in the vanguard the invaluable and vulnerable CVs?

    Despite the Catalinas, the Americans lost track of the Jap CVs and many of their planes got lost. With a large fleet of BBs. CA, DDs, etc, and twice as many carriers with a larger CAP, many planes would have attacked BBs, instead of carriers (like the SB2Us from Midway did), reducing greatly the probability of a Jap carrier being damaged or sunk.
    In contrast, Yorktown was damaged only by a few planes from Hiryu, the smallest carrier and attacking without coordination. With a massive Japanese first wave in a coordinated attack, all 3 US carriers are repidly damaged and cannot launch planes, they are doomed.
    Last edited by Draco; 01 Mar 14, 11:42.

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  • johns624
    replied
    Originally posted by Draco View Post
    1) the BB's scout planes detect the US carriers as they approach Midway to shell it. Midway planes have to attack the BB's, but the 500 lb bombs of the SB2Us, faulty torpedoes, etc, don't do much damage on the armoured ships. The slow SB2Us, Buffaloes, etc, are shot down by the AAA and carrier planes covering them or destroyed on the ground by shelling, along with the destruction of the coastal guns, AAA, etc,

    2) All the Jap carrier planes are armed with torpedoes and AP bombs, since the capital ships will destroy Midway. As soon as the scout planes find the American carriers, they launch a massive wave to sink them and the fast CAs and destroyers and subs head toward them to sink any damaged surviving carriers and their escort ships.

    Zuikaku has the few surviving planes from the Coral Sea (Shokaku's and her own, the most experienced and angry Jap pilots), plus some planes from Kaga and Akagi. Zuikaku allows faster launching of the initial wave and provides additional fuel, bombs, torpedoes, mechanics, AAA, medical facilities, scout planes, etc, It was a colossal blunder to leave her in Japan, just like the blunder of leaving the capital ships behind and sending the carriers in the vanguard. And the blunder of sending Ryujo and Junyo to fart around in Alaska.
    The Catalinas with their much longer range would find the Japanese fleet first...just like they did in real life.

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  • Draco
    replied
    Originally posted by frisco17 View Post
    You're right. It's not like surveillance technology has advanced in any way since 1941. If only we had some kind of magical eyes in space that could see anywhere on earth.
    Right, Obama was cought overnight, so the Chinese stand no chance of building planes underground or in mountain caves in Tibet.
    The shoe bomber was also cought by satellite intelligence when he repeatedly tried lo light up his shoe with a match in an airplane.
    Last edited by Draco; 01 Mar 14, 11:16.

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  • Draco
    replied
    Originally posted by johns624 View Post
    How would the IJN BB's get within 15 miles of the US carriers?
    1) the BB's scout planes detect the US carriers as they approach Midway to shell it. Midway planes have to attack the BB's, but the 500 lb bombs of the SB2Us, faulty torpedoes, etc, don't do much damage on the armoured ships. The slow SB2Us, Buffaloes, etc, are shot down by the AAA and carrier planes covering them or destroyed on the ground by shelling, along with the destruction of the coastal guns, AAA, etc,

    2) All the Jap carrier planes are armed with torpedoes and AP bombs, since the capital ships will destroy Midway. As soon as the scout planes find the American carriers, they launch a massive wave to sink them and the fast CAs and destroyers and subs head toward them to sink any damaged surviving carriers and their escort ships.

    Zuikaku has the few surviving planes from the Coral Sea (Shokaku's and her own, the most experienced and angry Jap pilots), plus some planes from Kaga and Akagi. Zuikaku allows faster launching of the initial wave and provides additional fuel, bombs, torpedoes, mechanics, AAA, medical facilities, scout planes, etc, It was a colossal blunder to leave her in Japan, just like the blunder of leaving the capital ships and Zuiho behind and sending 4 fleet carriers in the vanguard. And the blunder of sending Ryujo and Junyo to fart around in Alaska, with reduced plane complements.
    Last edited by Draco; 01 Mar 14, 11:20.

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  • frisco17
    replied
    Originally posted by Draco View Post
    Besides, the point is that if Japan with a ridiculous industry could build unnoticed a huge BB, China with its huge territory and industry can certainly build thousands of fighters, helicopters, refueling planes, etc, unnoticed.
    You're right. It's not like surveillance technology has advanced in any way since 1941. If only we had some kind of magical eyes in space that could see anywhere on earth.

    Leave a comment:


  • johns624
    replied
    How would the IJN BB's get within 15 miles of the US carriers?

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  • Draco
    replied
    Originally posted by johns624 View Post
    Too late for what? The age of the battleship was over except for escorting carriers and shore bombardment.
    Had Yamamoto sailed toward Midway in Yamato, with the other BBs and CAs, with the carriers (including Zuiho, Ryujo, Junyo and Zuikaku) 250 km behind them (providing air cover from a safe distance), the BBs would have taken a few hits, but Midway and the 3 US carriers would have been lost.
    Cruisers were still useful, Yamamoto just didn't used them well. He took a huge fleet to Midway and only a tiny part were involved in thebattle and the most valuable carriers lost. Each BB and CA had several scout planes and would have detected the US carriers.
    Mitscher placed the Battleships, etc, ahead of the carriers in Saipan, he had more sense than Yamamoto.

    Besides, the point is that if Japan with a ridiculous industry could build unnoticed a huge BB, China with its huge territory and industry can certainly build thousands of fighters, helicopters, refueling planes, etc, unnoticed.
    Last edited by Draco; 01 Mar 14, 10:40.

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  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Originally posted by andrewza View Post
    Then the zulus rocked up riding sharks with lasers on there heads throwing intercontian balstic spears at the drunk fins and russians.
    South Africa has those? I mean what could be worse than Zulus riding sharks with laser beams on their heads!

    Leave a comment:


  • johns624
    replied
    Originally posted by Draco View Post
    The US had no clue about huge Yamato until it was too late.
    Too late for what? The age of the battleship was over except for escorting carriers and shore bombardment.

    Leave a comment:


  • Draco
    replied
    Russia knows that China will expand and that it makes much more sense to expand against weak enemies than against strong Russia.
    Russia has plenty of land and resources and is not interested in over populated China.

    China wants the territorial waters and land of the Philippines, the Industry of Japan, Taiwan and Korea.

    The only hope for the Philippines is India, Indonesia and Malaya. The questions are: are they willing to fight, to do it concertedly and can they mobilize fast enough? Chamberlain and Daladier declared war on Hitler, but Poland fell before they attacked Germany.

    Intelligence is a bitch.
    Hitler had no clue about the large numbers of T-34s and KV-1 (about the same number of PZ III and IV he had), nor even the true number of Soviet divisions or the existence of Katyushas or 76 mm AT guns before Barbarossa.
    The US had no clue about huge Yamato until it was too late, the whereabouts of a large fleet before Pearl Harbor, the battle of the bulge or the thousands of Jap planes in caves ready to be used as Kamikazes during the invasion of the mainland. Hell they didn't even know about hundreds of Muslim terrorists preparing in American pilot schools.

    How can Intelligence know if the Chinese have 10,000 fighters, attack helicopters and transport helicopters underground?

    The Russians appear to have the best intelligence (they informed Clinton about Obama, etc,). But if they decide to allow the Chinese to expand to the east and South, that intelligence will not reach Japan, Taiwan or the Philippines.

    Regarding shipping, China and Korea can capture considerable resources as soon as they attack.

    Japanese i& German ndustry, population, food production, etc, were ridiculous in WW II, yet the US, GB, Canada, USSR, etc, took years to defeat them. Chinese industry, population, grain production, etc, are colossal, and if China acquires Japanese and Taiwanese Industry and N. Korea acquires S. Korean Industry, Red Asia becomes a formidable foe.
    Last edited by Draco; 01 Mar 14, 10:24.

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