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China & North Korea Vs. South Korea, Taiwan, Japan and Philippines 2014

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Doveton Sturdee View Post
    I have been reading your posts on this and other threads with increasing incredulity, and would be delighted beyond measure if you would kindly explain something which is mystifying me, and, no doubt, numerous others.

    On the Yamamoto or Nimitz Plan Midway Properly you make the following statements:-

    Post 5

    Mitchell was forced to leave after proving that twin engine biplanes with 2,000 lb bombs could sink a battleship in minutes in 1921.

    Post 14

    The USN did their best to prevent the sinking of the battleship, repeatedly changing the conditions and delayig the attacks on several ships over several days. They stupidly limited the attack on a cruiser to 600 lb bombs and planes sank it, to the navy´s surprise and chagrin. The actual attack on the Ostfriesland lasted minutes and Mitchell had to ignore the last minute conditions and dropped all the bombs. 1 bomber out of 8 had to return without attacking, the ship sank after 6 bombs and the last one was dropped as a salute where the ship had sunk.

    Even after the sinking, the navy stupidly refused to accept the fact and concluded that battleships were the most important weapon.

    Post 29

    (much easier to sink than the battleship that Mitchell sank with 6 bombs, which had survived 14 heavy shells in the battle of Jutland and a mine as it returned to harbour and after 2 months of repairs was ready to fight again). Mitchell did with 8 cheap bombers what British battleships could not do.

    On that thread you clearly argued that battleships were desperately vulnerable to air attack, and, at least in your view, had been since 1921. The mighty Ostfriesland, according to your (incorrect) claim in post 29, survived 14 heavy hits from the RN at Jutland, but succumbed in a few minutes to a few bombs. - Incidentally, I did ask you to let me have details of the sources which stated that Ostfriesland had received these hits, but other than a wildly incorrect article in an aircraft magazine, nothing has so far been forthcoming.

    Given your claims as stated above, how can you now possibly propose that Nimitz should have taken the action I have highlighted above? Do you not grasp that there is something of a contradiction here? If, as you apparently believe, the battleship had been vulnerable for 20 years, are you really arguing that a small force including one (oldish) battleship should have been sent to Midway, and a similar force sent to operate WNW of Midway, in order to 'attract' air attack?

    Perhaps you would have had the crews paint bullseyes on the fo'c's'les and quarterdecks (fantails) to further attract attention from Japanese aviators?!!

    You do at least state above that:

    1) BBs (even the slow American ones) were far from being useless at the time of Midway and were used dismally by both sides.

    but I fail to grasp how sending two battleships into positions where they could attract air attack is a less dismal use of them.


    My knowledge of Midway is rather less extensive than that of the various contributors who have refuted your arguments here, but I am sure that they would also be interested to receive an explanation of the apparently schizophrenic nature of your statements.

    I wouldn't bother argueing with a schizo if I were you.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Draco View Post
      I wouldn't bother argueing with a schizo if I were you.
      As you are evidently unable to provide a reasoned answer to a reasonable question, I assume that you accept the obvious flaws in your suggestion.

      To have two capital ships with inadequate AA armament exposed to potential air attack in the manner you propose is foolish enough, but to have them too far apart to be mutually supportive should Japanese heavy ships appear really goes so far beyond the realities of naval warfare in 1942 as to border upon the lunatic.

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      • #78
        Popcorn! Hot buttered popcorn! We got beer too!

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Draco View Post
          As long as Vitenam is not attacked and maybe its claims are satisfied to dissuade it from fighting, Russia has a lot more to gain by trading with China and letting China expand east and south, than taking a belligerant position that severs relations with China.
          China is simply too powerful an economy to oppose. It has single handedly regulated the price of grain, metals, leather, cotton, lumber, etc, by purchasing enormous quantities at a low price and with good terms,which then causes scarcity and prices to go up for its competitors. It has single handedly bankrupted most of the clothing, shoe, etc, industries in the rest of the world and reduced the price of these items.
          If Russia continues providing oil, gas, etc, to China during the war (as Stalin did with Hitler), it has a lot more to gain that if it opposed China. The same goes for the US.
          Americans were were not willing to fight weak China in 1951 (as Mac Arthur suggested), they are less belligerant now and China much stronger. In the depression, would they really start WW II over distant countries?
          Russia has a lot to lose by siding with China too. By doing nothing to pressure China to stop, the world is going to isolate itself from Russia, just as its doing now. You still erroneously believe, without providing how, China will defeat an East Asian alliance and annex some of the most powerful countries in Asia, with much different ways of life and forms of government. Just the thought of China being in control and forced to accept its draconian laws in their countries will drive the general population into a suicidal panic. Korea, Japan, and Taiwan would rather fight to the death than bow to China. Philippines, Malaysia, and Vietnam, if they were invaded, would resist the Chinese fiercely as well.

          China is prepared to conduct war one front at a time and would probably be capable of taking Taiwan with heavy losses and a long insurgency, but they are in no way prepared to fight a multi-front war with all other East Asian countries and the US from Hokkaido to Eastern Malaysia. You might even get Australia involved, as the stability the region is also in its best interests and being that China would be the aggressors, guess who they would side with...
          The Europa Barbarorum II team [M2TW] needs YOUR HELP NOW HERE!

          Comment


          • #80
            Russia and China can support each other for a while. It is the rest of the world, which cannot live without them for a month in its depressed economy. China controls huge interests even so far as South America and Africa.

            Without China buying wheat, soy, steel, lumber, cotton, wool, meat, etc, the depressed economies collapse.

            Russia could easily double its agricutural production in a couple of years with Chinese investment and laborers.

            The US economy is based on a delusional dollar. The Chinese dictate its real value.

            China can concentrate on building large ships, large airliners, etc, for a few years, which would ruin the western shipping companies, airliner manufacturers, etc,
            For starters, China can probably buy the Russian small airliner production for a few years.

            Australia has about 25 million people and if china stops buying agricultural products, the prices of wool and meat collapse. China need not worry too much about the Australian military. If the latter declares war on China, it is more likely that China takes Australia than all the way around. I figure that within 80 km of Shanghai's center you have about the same population as Australia.

            If most of the world stops dealing with China, the price of zinc, tungsten, clothing, shoes,etc skyrockets, while the price of the products that China imports collapses. Quite an unprecented situation.

            In 1941 US industry was the greatest in the world and German industry was quite small and Japan's even more so, yet the war lasted years and cost the US over 100 billion dollars of that time. China had the greatest population but almost no industry.
            Today China is the greatest industrial power and has the largest population and despite producing huge amounts of grain, it is the main importer.
            Russia has enormous agricultural and industrial potential. Who can afford to oppose China? Together China, unified Korea, Vietnam and Russia can benefit enormously from each other, while the west wanes. If Vietnam gets rid of cheap coffee varieties and grows good quality coffeei in large quantities, it won't satisfy the growing demand in the countries mentioned. The same goes for tropical nuts and fruits, avocadoes, etc,

            If Brazil, Argentina, etc, decide to continue trading with China and Russia, the situation is even worse for the US and Europe.
            Last edited by Draco; 04 Mar 14, 12:23.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Doveton Sturdee View Post
              ...... the lunatic.

              I think you hit the nail on the head there.
              Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

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              • #82
                I think this is (with apologies) apropos here:

                Comment


                • #83
                  By the way, some interesting figures about steel production in January 2014 (thousand tonnes)
                  Australia 339, UK 1,083, Mexico 1,550, Taiwan, 1,840, Brazil 2,738, Germany 3,660, Russia 5,935, South Korea 6,040, India 6,954, US 7,328, Japan 9,401 and China 61,570.

                  Whereas in all of 1939 China produced 0.5, India 1, Australia 1.2, Japan 5.8, Britain 13.2, USSR 18.8, Germany 23.3 and US 51.4 million tons (not tonnes as above).

                  There are similar figures for several metals, grains, farm fish, machine tools, etc, with China leading world production and the difference growing. DEspite this unprecedented production, China is a major importer of many of these products!
                  Last edited by Draco; 08 Mar 14, 00:25.

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                  • #84
                    I consider it extremely likely that when Russia occupies Transnistria and Kharkiv North Korea and China will attack South Korea, Taiwan, the Philippines and Japan (perhaps with Russian help). Further frustrating and confusing the US and NATO.
                    Since Russia, China, Japan and South Korea are important steel producers, steel and steel product availability would be limited in the rest of the world in case of world war, the same goes for tungsten and many other vital materials.

                    If Russia and China supply each other and N. Korea with their best weapons and technology, they become a formidable adversary.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Draco View Post
                      I consider it extremely likely that when Russia occupies Transnistria and Kharkiv North Korea and China will attack South Korea, Taiwan, the Philippines and Japan (perhaps with Russian help). Further frustrating and confusing the US and NATO.
                      Since Russia, China, Japan and South Korea are important steel producers, steel and steel product availability would be limited in the rest of the world in case of world war, the same goes for tungsten and many other vital materials.
                      Still taking those mind altering drugs, huh?
                      China, Japan and Korea may be major steel producers, but where do you think they get their iron ore from? I'll give you a hint--it isn't domestically.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by johns624 View Post
                        Still taking those mind altering drugs, huh?
                        China, Japan and Korea may be major steel producers, but where do you think they get their iron ore from? I'll give you a hint--it isn't domestically.
                        Russia and Khazakhstan have plenty of iron ore, chromite (iron and chromium ore), etc, so they would greatly benefit from suppling China, instead of that money going to Australia.
                        India is a major supplier and may continue supplying China, since it needs the income.
                        So western economies suffer as eastern economies benefit.
                        Last edited by Draco; 07 Apr 14, 22:03.

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                        • #87
                          You forget that the US, Canada and Brazil are also major steel producers.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by johns624 View Post
                            You forget that the US, Canada and Brazil are also major steel producers.
                            Which together produce a small fraction of what China alone produces (see above). The US produces less even than Japan and mostly from scrap not from ore.
                            I think Brazil can barely supply its needs (it's a huge country with a large population and growing economy and it produces a little more steel than tiny Taiwan, less tha Germany and half as much as Russia).
                            Last edited by Draco; 07 Apr 14, 22:12.

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                            • #89
                              China buys a vast quantity of scrap steel from the US. All those containers that bring in crap Wallyworld products don't go back empty.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by johns624 View Post
                                China buys a vast quantity of scrap steel from the US. All those containers that bring in crap Wallyworld products don't go back empty.

                                The crap Wallyworld products include some of the most famous American, European and Japanese brands (hybrid cars, Airbuses, BMWs, etc,). The US exports grain, lumber, etc, back to China. In economic terms that makes the US a colony of China (raw materials for finished products).

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