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China & North Korea Vs. South Korea, Taiwan, Japan and Philippines 2014

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  • Draco
    replied
    it doesn't take much to make monkeys laugh. uh uh ah ah

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  • broderickwells
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    South Africa has those? I mean what could be worse than Zulus riding sharks with laser beams on their heads!
    Mongols riding sharks with IS-2's strapped to the heads (either the Mongols or the sharks have the IS-2's).

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  • Draco
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    They were designed to defend an island atoll. Their biggest weakness was the lack of infantry. The whole unit was heavy weapons (crew served .30 and .50 machineguns, 3" AA guns, 5" coast defense guns. A tank platoon was added as at Midway). That is why two companies of Marine riflemen were added at Midway: To make up for the lack of infantry.



    The destroyers at Midway that bombarded it had 5" guns as anyone would know with a cursory knowledge of the IJN (Ushio and Sazanami). For more detail the two destroyers fired a total of 302 rounds and did minor damage to the various installations on Midway.
    The point you made is wrong and irrelevant. The Japanese, unopposed would have met disaster landing. Their fleet would have conducted a cursory bombardment of an hour or so and then landed their troops to see them slaughtered.
    They would not have done something like the USN did at Tarawa where the bombardment lasted days and the ships were unconcerned about enemy naval engagement. The Japanese would have been.

    Your historical ignorance is showing.
    If you consider destroying a Catalina, hangar, etc, for 302 shells, without any loses a useless operation. Had those been the 2 BB and CAs instead of destroyers, they could have fired all night without any incoming fire and caused a lot of damage. But there was little there at the time, so they risked their destroyers.

    The purpose of the whole Midway operation was to sink the US carriers. Had they done so while the ships shelled Midway, they may not have even invaded Midway. They planned to invade it only to lure the US carriers, but if they were there already, they would have simply sunk them and maybe just wiped out the island and left.

    A few bombs damaged almost everything in Midway, except the strip. Hundreds of heavy shells would have done more. After silencing the guns, the CLs and DDs would have approached and picked their targets at their leisure. I wonder what damage the blast of a single 18" HE shell could do to men in MG nests and exposed coastal guns.

    Even if they decided to invade. The Japanese learnt from their mistales, they had lost a lot of men in Wake, because they didn't have planes or heavy guns (a single CA with 8" would have made a big difference in Wake, much more the armada in Midway) and didn't neutralize the coastal guns nor destroy the 4 Wildcats. They had performed a great many succesful landings in between.
    They would have definitely silenced the guns. When you have a large fleet, an hours shelling is quite effective. They would have definitely used planes and close gun fire from destroyers to support the landing.

    It is interesting that when they took Wake, the Japs installed a larger captured gun from Singapore, so they had longer range than formidable Midway, which had months to install at least a 6" gun to complement the dual 5" guns. It seems that the Americans learnt less from their mistakes.
    Nimitz had repaired battleships, but did not send one to Midway, although he knew that he would face battleships there.
    Last edited by Draco; 01 Mar 14, 20:56.

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  • Draco
    replied
    Originally posted by Frtigern View Post
    I agree but Russia could see specific areas with not many people vital to its country in the long term.



    And they should expect a well prepared alliance to defeat them.



    I don't see how India matters, but Vietnam may feel threatened and join with the Philippines, Indonesia and Malaysia.



    Intelligence has evolved since WW2. Just compare the amount of tech and resources we have now that didn't exist in WW2. Hundreds of Muslim terrorists? Last I heard there was maybe half a dozen. Its not uncommon for Muslim pilots to come to train in the US before becoming airliner pilots in the Middle East. Not every Muslim is a jihadi.



    Someone else replied rationally to this for me.



    Russia isn't buddy buddy with China. If it sees them doing something stupid, its going to pass along that information to others.



    Ok, maybe you mean foreign cargo and tanker ships? North Korea can't do anything. China may confiscate some ships but oh well. Any move they make against other countries territory is going to create a retaliation.



    US, Japanese, Korean, Taiwanese and to a lesser extent Filipino industry, population and grain production are quite large as well. A big IF which isn't based in reality.
    India has carriers that could help the Philippines and can bomb China. Vietnam knows that China's army is completely different from the army that invaded Vietnam.
    I doubt that Vietnam, India, Indonesia or Malaya will risk war with China to help the Philippines, especially Vietnam, given its location (well within rocket and bomber range) and its friendship with Russia.

    I don't think Denmark, Norway, etc, can retaliate very strongly, especially if China acquires Japan, the Philippines and Taiwan, the world needs that trade and industry and those sea routes.
    China has been buying an increasing percentage of world production of minerals, metals, food, wood, cotton, oil, etc, and supplying much of the clothing, tooling and equipment of the world. Few countries could afford to sever abruptly trade with China and those who don't will do rather well. Russia would certainly benefit trading with China, if the rest of the world doesn't.

    Young Koreans are a different world form 1950, on both sides. While the North is ready to sacrifice millions to take the South, Suuth Koreans may rather be red than dead when the invasion tidal wave comes.
    Last edited by Draco; 01 Mar 14, 19:48.

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  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Originally posted by Draco View Post
    How many 6" to 18" shells from the huge fleet do you think it takes to blow up exposed coastal guns, land strips, etc,? until the US carriers are sunk or the island invaded? Do you think a few bombers in 1 or 2 waves can do better and their carriers have unlimited ordinance and fuel to both destroy the island and sink the carriers and their escorts, while the BBs and CAs save theirs to return to Japan, pointelessly burning up huge amounts of fuel. Great logistics.
    Based on actual results and predicted damage the Japanese would have had to fire 19,200 shells of 8" or greater to destroy all the 3" and larger guns on Midway. Ain't happening....

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  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Originally posted by Draco View Post
    Marine defense batallions are not designed for the mother of all battles, they are designed for common situations, where they have to relocate their weapons and carry the ammo. If you're defending a tiny island in fixed positions and have all the ammo transported by ships, it is absurd to have ..30 cal guns. But forget it, concentrate on nitpciking. We all wasted some time with your caustic correction of 4.7" instead of 4.5" which took all the attention away from the point.
    They were designed to defend an island atoll. Their biggest weakness was the lack of infantry. The whole unit was heavy weapons (crew served .30 and .50 machineguns, 3" AA guns, 5" coast defense guns. A tank platoon was added as at Midway). That is why two companies of Marine riflemen were added at Midway: To make up for the lack of infantry.

    The destroyers at Midway that bombarded it had 5" guns as anyone would know with a cursory knowledge of the IJN (Ushio and Sazanami). For more detail the two destroyers fired a total of 302 rounds and did minor damage to the various installations on Midway.
    The point you made is wrong and irrelevant. The Japanese, unopposed would have met disaster landing. Their fleet would have conducted a cursory bombardment of an hour or so and then landed their troops to see them slaughtered.
    They would not have done something like the USN did at Tarawa where the bombardment lasted days and the ships were unconcerned about enemy naval engagement. The Japanese would have been.

    Your historical ignorance is showing.

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  • Draco
    replied
    Originally posted by tigersqn View Post
    You've already been informed about the ammunition requirements for the IJN battleships, several times.

    Oh right..............I keep forgetting you don't DO logistics.

    The battleships in your fantasies(or is it your video game ?) must have unlimited ammo and fuel.
    It takes more fuel to sail back quickly all the way to Japan without firing any of the very heavy shells of Yamato and the other BBs and CAs than to linger around Midway at low speed blowing up the defenses and shooting down planes and then sailing to Truck. But forget it, it takes common sense to see that the most expensive BB in history should be used, instead of hiding it behind vulnerable carriers and using it just for cruising around and anchoring it at Truk for a year (hotel Yamato). How many 6" to 18" shells from the huge fleet do you think it takes to blow up exposed coastal guns, land strips, etc,? until the US carriers are sunk or the island invaded? Do you think a few bombers in 1 or 2 waves can do better and their carriers have unlimited ordinance and fuel to both destroy the island and sink the carriers and their escorts, while the BBs and CAs save theirs to return to Japan, pointelessly burning up huge amounts of fuel. Great logistics.

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  • Draco
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    For example, you made a major point of .50 versus .30 machineguns on Midway. Since you don't know the make up of a Marine Defense Battalion and know that 50% of its machineguns are .50 cal (32 weapons but this varies some with the unit and date of employment).

    As for your drivel on sniping: Am I an observer or a sniper? Those are two different things.
    Marine defense batallions are not designed for the mother of all battles, they are designed for common situations, where they have to relocate their weapons and carry the ammo. If you're defending a tiny island in fixed positions and have all the ammo transported by ships, it is absurd to have ..30 cal guns. But forget it, concentrate on nitpciking. We all wasted some time with your caustic correction of 4.7" instead of 4.5" which took all the attention away from the point.

    Leave a comment:


  • tigersqn
    replied
    Originally posted by Draco View Post
    Haruna, etc, bombed at night and left. Even then, a few hours is all it takes for the planes to run out of fuel and have to alight at sea or to invade an island or to sink the American carriers.

    If you have an armada shelling for a while and the BBs don't have any reason to leave, you can keep repairing it and they'll keep blowing it up, until you run out of dozers and men.
    One more reason to use the BBs, instead of the scarce, expensive bombers, which only operate during the day.

    You've already been informed about the ammunition requirements for the IJN battleships, several times.

    Oh right..............I keep forgetting you don't DO logistics.

    The battleships in your fantasies(or is it your video game ?) must have unlimited ammo and fuel.

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  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Originally posted by Draco View Post
    Those are my conditions for the duel (like walking a fixed distance in the 18th centure), of course you can change them at will). You can add a spotter, a sentinnel, a gilly suit or a satellite.
    By the way how do you see a vehicle or a man comming in your direction from the rear of the room, behind a large mass of things. How do you avoid a cloud of dust when you fire?

    Typical nitpickers, they become distracted, raging mad and obnoxious by irrelevant details: whether the Japs used 4.5 or 4.7" guns (which round up to the same number), or whether a 150 gr bullet is better than a 175 gr bullet, etc, and fail completely to see the point, any man is better with a .50 cal MG than a .30 cal MG against planes, landing craft and troops in Midway. Dozens of 6" to 18" shooting for a long time cause a lot more damage than a few 4.7" guns shooting for a short while, while being shot by 5" coastal guns.
    For example, you made a major point of .50 versus .30 machineguns on Midway. Since you don't know the make up of a Marine Defense Battalion and know that 50% of its machineguns are .50 cal (32 weapons but this varies some with the unit and date of employment).

    As for your drivel on sniping: Am I an observer or a sniper? Those are two different things.

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  • Draco
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    In my case you'd be dead and you wouldn't know what hit you. Only a moron or a complete amateur shoots from the window sill of a building / house. The properly trained and smart shoot from further back in the room from behind a large mass of things like dressers filled with dirt to make their firing position both un-noticeable and bullet proof.
    So, you die and never know what hit you...

    Oh, just curious... Did you acquire that .223 as part of the Fast and Furious program...
    Those are my conditions for the duel (like walking a fixed distance in the 18th centure), of course you can change them at will). You can add a spotter, a sentinnel, a gilly suit or a satellite.
    By the way how do you see a vehicle or a man comming in your direction from the rear of the room, behind a large mass of things. How do you avoid a cloud of dust when you fire?

    Typical nitpickers, they become distracted, raging mad and obnoxious by irrelevant details: whether the Japs used 4.5 or 4.7" guns (which round up to the same number), or whether a 150 gr bullet is better than a 175 gr bullet, etc, and fail completely to see the point, any man is better with a .50 cal MG than a .30 cal MG against planes, landing craft and troops in Midway. Dozens of 6" to 18" shooting for a long time cause a lot more damage than a few 4.7" guns shooting for a short while, while being shot by 5" coastal guns.
    Last edited by Draco; 01 Mar 14, 18:21.

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  • Frtigern
    replied
    Originally posted by Draco View Post
    Russia knows that China will expand and that it makes much more sense to expand against weak enemies than against strong Russia.
    Russia has plenty of land and resources and is not interested in over populated China.
    I agree but Russia could see specific areas with not many people vital to its country in the long term.

    Originally posted by Draco View Post
    China wants the territorial waters and land of the Philippines, the Industry of Japan, Taiwan and Korea.
    And they should expect a well prepared alliance to defeat them.

    Originally posted by Draco View Post
    The only hope for the Philippines is India, Indonesia and Malaya. The questions are: are they willing to fight, to do it concertedly and can they mobilize fast enough? Chamberlain and Daladier declared war on Hitler, but Poland fell before they attacked Germany.
    I don't see how India matters, but Vietnam may feel threatened and join with the Philippines, Indonesia and Malaysia.

    Originally posted by Draco View Post
    Intelligence is a bitch.
    Hitler had no clue about the large numbers of T-34s and KV-1 (about the same number of PZ III and IV he had), nor even the true number of Soviet divisions or the existence of Katyushas or 76 mm AT guns before Barbarossa.
    The US had no clue about huge Yamato until it was too late, the whereabouts of a large fleet before Pearl Harbor, the battle of the bulge or the thousands of Jap planes in caves ready to be used as Kamikazes during the invasion of the mainland. Hell they didn't even know about hundreds of Muslim terrorists preparing in American pilot schools.
    Intelligence has evolved since WW2. Just compare the amount of tech and resources we have now that didn't exist in WW2. Hundreds of Muslim terrorists? Last I heard there was maybe half a dozen. Its not uncommon for Muslim pilots to come to train in the US before becoming airliner pilots in the Middle East. Not every Muslim is a jihadi.

    Originally posted by Draco View Post
    How can Intelligence know if the Chinese have 10,000 fighters, attack helicopters and transport helicopters underground?
    Someone else replied rationally to this for me.

    Originally posted by Draco View Post
    The Russians appear to have the best intelligence (they informed Clinton about Obama, etc,). But if they decide to allow the Chinese to expand to the east and South, that intelligence will not reach Japan, Taiwan or the Philippines.
    Russia isn't buddy buddy with China. If it sees them doing something stupid, its going to pass along that information to others.

    Originally posted by Draco View Post
    Regarding shipping, China and Korea can capture considerable resources as soon as they attack.
    Ok, maybe you mean foreign cargo and tanker ships? North Korea can't do anything. China may confiscate some ships but oh well. Any move they make against other countries territory is going to create a retaliation.

    Originally posted by Draco View Post
    Japanese i& German ndustry, population, food production, etc, were ridiculous in WW II, yet the US, GB, Canada, USSR, etc, took years to defeat them. Chinese industry, population, grain production, etc, are colossal, and if China acquires Japanese and Taiwanese Industry and N. Korea acquires S. Korean Industry, Red Asia becomes a formidable foe.
    US, Japanese, Korean, Taiwanese and to a lesser extent Filipino industry, population and grain production are quite large as well. A big IF which isn't based in reality.

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  • Draco
    replied
    Originally posted by tigersqn View Post
    After IJN battleships Kongo and Haruna bombarded Henderson Field, it only took a few hours to get one runway operational.

    "In spite of the heavy damage, Henderson personnel were able to restore one of the runways to operational condition within a few hours. Seventeen SBDs and 20 Wildcats at Espiritu Santo were quickly flown to Henderson and U.S. Army and Marine transport aircraft began to shuttle aviation gasoline from Espiritu Santo to Guadalcanal"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guadalc...enderson_Field
    Haruna, etc, bombed at night and left. Even then, a few hours is all it takes for the planes to run out of fuel and have to alight at sea or to invade an island or to sink the American carriers.

    If you have an armada shelling for a while and the BBs don't have any reason to leave, you can keep repairing it and they'll keep blowing it up, until you run out of dozers and men.
    One more reason to use the BBs, instead of the scarce, expensive bombers, which only operate during the day.
    Last edited by Draco; 01 Mar 14, 17:45.

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  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Originally posted by Draco View Post
    You use the .308 and I the Barret at 500 m, both resting on a window sill in a brick house. You'll have to hit me in the head, I'll cut you in half if I hit you in the belly or blow your arm or leg away, even if you're standing behind a wall and I get 10 quick shots. 700 gr tend to be better than 150. Recoil is worse in my .300 Rem mag, which by the way is more accurate than my .223 bolt action (despite being a cheap Savage).
    The wind, temperature, etc, affect you more and your bullet loses speed much faster than mine.
    German MG42 crews tended to shy away from .50 cal guns. Jerry could spit a lot of rounds per minute but just didn't have the range, penetration through walls or destructive power and they had to keep feeding miles of belts and replacing worn barrels very often. In contrast, they liked facing .30 cal MGs.

    I thought that MGs in a tank and Jeep were mainly antipersonnel (Audie Murphy held back quite a few men alone with it for quite a while, despite being wounded by 8mm bullets) and that landing craft and planes were vehicles.
    In my case you'd be dead and you wouldn't know what hit you. Only a moron or a complete amateur shoots from the window sill of a building / house. The properly trained and smart shoot from further back in the room from behind a large mass of things like dressers filled with dirt to make their firing position both un-noticeable and bullet proof.
    So, you die and never know what hit you...

    Oh, just curious... Did you acquire that .223 as part of the Fast and Furious program...

    Leave a comment:


  • Duke Maynard
    replied
    Originally posted by Draco View Post
    ... USSR.
    Damn Soviets keep interfering in time periods in which they do not belong!

    Leave a comment:

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