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China & North Korea Vs. South Korea, Taiwan, Japan and Philippines 2014

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Frtigern View Post
    I agree but Russia could see specific areas with not many people vital to its country in the long term.



    And they should expect a well prepared alliance to defeat them.



    I don't see how India matters, but Vietnam may feel threatened and join with the Philippines, Indonesia and Malaysia.



    Intelligence has evolved since WW2. Just compare the amount of tech and resources we have now that didn't exist in WW2. Hundreds of Muslim terrorists? Last I heard there was maybe half a dozen. Its not uncommon for Muslim pilots to come to train in the US before becoming airliner pilots in the Middle East. Not every Muslim is a jihadi.



    Someone else replied rationally to this for me.



    Russia isn't buddy buddy with China. If it sees them doing something stupid, its going to pass along that information to others.



    Ok, maybe you mean foreign cargo and tanker ships? North Korea can't do anything. China may confiscate some ships but oh well. Any move they make against other countries territory is going to create a retaliation.



    US, Japanese, Korean, Taiwanese and to a lesser extent Filipino industry, population and grain production are quite large as well. A big IF which isn't based in reality.
    India has carriers that could help the Philippines and can bomb China. Vietnam knows that China's army is completely different from the army that invaded Vietnam.
    I doubt that Vietnam, India, Indonesia or Malaya will risk war with China to help the Philippines, especially Vietnam, given its location (well within rocket and bomber range) and its friendship with Russia.

    I don't think Denmark, Norway, etc, can retaliate very strongly, especially if China acquires Japan, the Philippines and Taiwan, the world needs that trade and industry and those sea routes.
    China has been buying an increasing percentage of world production of minerals, metals, food, wood, cotton, oil, etc, and supplying much of the clothing, tooling and equipment of the world. Few countries could afford to sever abruptly trade with China and those who don't will do rather well. Russia would certainly benefit trading with China, if the rest of the world doesn't.

    Young Koreans are a different world form 1950, on both sides. While the North is ready to sacrifice millions to take the South, Suuth Koreans may rather be red than dead when the invasion tidal wave comes.
    Last edited by Draco; 01 Mar 14, 19:48.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
      They were designed to defend an island atoll. Their biggest weakness was the lack of infantry. The whole unit was heavy weapons (crew served .30 and .50 machineguns, 3" AA guns, 5" coast defense guns. A tank platoon was added as at Midway). That is why two companies of Marine riflemen were added at Midway: To make up for the lack of infantry.



      The destroyers at Midway that bombarded it had 5" guns as anyone would know with a cursory knowledge of the IJN (Ushio and Sazanami). For more detail the two destroyers fired a total of 302 rounds and did minor damage to the various installations on Midway.
      The point you made is wrong and irrelevant. The Japanese, unopposed would have met disaster landing. Their fleet would have conducted a cursory bombardment of an hour or so and then landed their troops to see them slaughtered.
      They would not have done something like the USN did at Tarawa where the bombardment lasted days and the ships were unconcerned about enemy naval engagement. The Japanese would have been.

      Your historical ignorance is showing.
      If you consider destroying a Catalina, hangar, etc, for 302 shells, without any loses a useless operation. Had those been the 2 BB and CAs instead of destroyers, they could have fired all night without any incoming fire and caused a lot of damage. But there was little there at the time, so they risked their destroyers.

      The purpose of the whole Midway operation was to sink the US carriers. Had they done so while the ships shelled Midway, they may not have even invaded Midway. They planned to invade it only to lure the US carriers, but if they were there already, they would have simply sunk them and maybe just wiped out the island and left.

      A few bombs damaged almost everything in Midway, except the strip. Hundreds of heavy shells would have done more. After silencing the guns, the CLs and DDs would have approached and picked their targets at their leisure. I wonder what damage the blast of a single 18" HE shell could do to men in MG nests and exposed coastal guns.

      Even if they decided to invade. The Japanese learnt from their mistales, they had lost a lot of men in Wake, because they didn't have planes or heavy guns (a single CA with 8" would have made a big difference in Wake, much more the armada in Midway) and didn't neutralize the coastal guns nor destroy the 4 Wildcats. They had performed a great many succesful landings in between.
      They would have definitely silenced the guns. When you have a large fleet, an hours shelling is quite effective. They would have definitely used planes and close gun fire from destroyers to support the landing.

      It is interesting that when they took Wake, the Japs installed a larger captured gun from Singapore, so they had longer range than formidable Midway, which had months to install at least a 6" gun to complement the dual 5" guns. It seems that the Americans learnt less from their mistakes.
      Nimitz had repaired battleships, but did not send one to Midway, although he knew that he would face battleships there.
      Last edited by Draco; 01 Mar 14, 20:56.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
        South Africa has those? I mean what could be worse than Zulus riding sharks with laser beams on their heads!
        Mongols riding sharks with IS-2's strapped to the heads (either the Mongols or the sharks have the IS-2's).

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        • #49
          it doesn't take much to make monkeys laugh. uh uh ah ah

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Draco View Post
            or whether a 150 gr bullet is better than a 175 gr bullet, etc, and fail completely to see the point, any man is better with a .50 cal MG than a .30 cal MG against planes, landing craft and troops in Midway. Dozens of 6" to 18" shooting for a long time cause a lot more damage than a few 4.7" guns shooting for a short while, while being shot by 5" coastal guns.
            Wrong.
            1. There is a huge difference between a 150gr M80 and a 175gr M118LR. If you knew more about marksmanship than a typical keyboard ninja, you'd know.
            2. While an M2 BHMG may be better against hard targets, against personnel, I'd still take a M1919. It has a faster rate of fire, ammo is lighter, and it has all the killing power needed.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by johns624 View Post
              Wrong.
              1. There is a huge difference between a 150gr M80 and a 175gr M118LR. If you knew more about marksmanship than a typical keyboard ninja, you'd know.
              2. While an M2 BHMG may be better against hard targets, against personnel, I'd still take a M1919. It has a faster rate of fire, ammo is lighter, and it has all the killing power needed.
              Maybe he's a Mall Ninja...

              http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

              Please, no beverages while reading that....

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by johns624 View Post
                Wrong.
                1. There is a huge difference between a 150gr M80 and a 175gr M118LR. If you knew more about marksmanship than a typical keyboard ninja, you'd know.
                2. While an M2 BHMG may be better against hard targets, against personnel, I'd still take a M1919. It has a faster rate of fire, ammo is lighter, and it has all the killing power needed.
                Again, you're missing the point completely. Granted, my markmanship sucks, your's is awesome. Unfortunately, We´re not discussing my markmanship but whether a .30 cal is adequate to shoot planes and landing craft. In my opinion it isn't, in your's it is.
                I agree wiith those idiots who put thirteen .50 cal guns on a B-17, or 6 on a Hellcat and one on a Sherman, you obviously agree with the geniuses who put .30 cal guns on Spifires and Lancasters and 8 mm guns on King Tigers.
                I wonder why the marines bothered with the expensive .50s and having to keep 2 types of ammo, spares, etc, if the .30s were just as good.
                I mentioned that Murphy kept shooting after being shot with 8 mm bullets, but the Germans getting .50s obviously didn't.

                A .30 cal bullet slows down considerably after 12" in the water, a .50 retains quite a bit of punch. A .50 can easily go through 2 men and keeps killing
                Last edited by Draco; 01 Mar 14, 22:33.

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                • #53
                  I was surprised to see that the four 7" guns in Midway were just 45 calibers long, so they have similar range to the six 5"/54 guns but have a lower rate of fire and are useless as AAA. Why have them? Even a long barrel 6" gun has longer range and a higher rate of fire.
                  In contrast, the longer British 8" gun that the Japs installed in Wake had longer range.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Draco View Post
                    I was surprised to see that the four 7" guns in Midway were just 45 calibers long, so they have similar range to the six 5"/54 guns but have a lower rate of fire and are useless as AAA. Why have them? Even a long barrel 6" gun has longer range and a higher rate of fire.
                    In contrast, the longer British 8" gun that the Japs installed in Wake had longer range.
                    Because:

                    A. They were surplus guns from old battleships.

                    and

                    B. They were available.

                    Just remember, the Japanese defended many of their Mid-Pacific islands with SNLF battalions similar to a Marine defense battalion with crummier weapons and the US pounded those islands for days before invading with 5 to 10 times as many troops.
                    Midway wasn't going to fall to the Japanese invasion force.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Draco View Post
                      Nimitz had repaired battleships, but did not send one to Midway, although he knew that he would face battleships there.
                      Nimitz knew that the day of the battleship was over. Coral Sea taught him that it was going to be a carrier war. Some people, 70 years later, still haven't figured that out.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Draco View Post
                        Again, you're missing the point completely. Granted, my markmanship sucks, your's is awesome. Unfortunately, We´re not discussing my markmanship but whether a .30 cal is adequate to shoot planes and landing craft. In my opinion it isn't, in your's it is.
                        I agree wiith those idiots who put thirteen .50 cal guns on a B-17, or 6 on a Hellcat and one on a Sherman, you obviously agree with the geniuses who put .30 cal guns on Spifires and Lancasters and 8 mm guns on King Tigers.
                        I wonder why the marines bothered with the expensive .50s and having to keep 2 types of ammo, spares, etc, if the .30s were just as good.
                        I mentioned that Murphy kept shooting after being shot with 8 mm bullets, but the Germans getting .50s obviously didn't.

                        A .30 cal bullet slows down considerably after 12" in the water, a .50 retains quite a bit of punch. A .50 can easily go through 2 men and keeps killing
                        Once again, and slower for the cognitively impaired---d i f f e r e n t g u n s s e r v e d i f f e r e n t p u r p o s e s.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Draco View Post
                          India has carriers that could help the Philippines and can bomb China. Vietnam knows that China's army is completely different from the army that invaded Vietnam.
                          I doubt that Vietnam, India, Indonesia or Malaya will risk war with China to help the Philippines, especially Vietnam, given its location (well within rocket and bomber range) and its friendship with Russia.

                          I don't think Denmark, Norway, etc, can retaliate very strongly, especially if China acquires Japan, the Philippines and Taiwan, the world needs that trade and industry and those sea routes.
                          China has been buying an increasing percentage of world production of minerals, metals, food, wood, cotton, oil, etc, and supplying much of the clothing, tooling and equipment of the world. Few countries could afford to sever abruptly trade with China and those who don't will do rather well. Russia would certainly benefit trading with China, if the rest of the world doesn't.

                          Young Koreans are a different world form 1950, on both sides. While the North is ready to sacrifice millions to take the South, Suuth Koreans may rather be red than dead when the invasion tidal wave comes.
                          India has a couple carriers yes, but I don't see how they need to get involved in this conflict whatsoever. Vietnam also sees China's demise as an opportunity to solidify its claims on the Paracel and Spratly Islands, possibly in conjunction with an alliance between Taiwan, Philippines, Malaysia, and Brunei, as its China that has extended its Economic Exclusive Zone to include the whole damn South China Sea, regardless if other countries shores have a right to it by being much closer than Chinas. Again, I don't think Russia has much to gain by supporting China, if China decides to try and conquer all of East Asia. Russia knows the US is not going to sit idly by as its allies get attacked. Its there to preserve the status quo and keep the shipping lanes open and Russia will see China's recklessness as a threat to its economic prosperity. Russian vessels also transit Chinese waters too and trade with all other countries besides China.

                          Whoever mentioned Denmark or Norway!? That was out of left field... Umm.. you're assuming China has just magically acquired Japan, the Philippines and Taiwan and that the world is sooo terrified of China, that its going to just let it take them? Yeah trade is important, but China also relies on the rest of the world to grow its economy. Its a double-edged sword that cuts both ways, as you said they import a lot of raw materials. The market will hurt for a while but those products that China produces and that we need can come from elsewhere. Russia doesn't absolutely need China. Russia needs Central Asia, Middle East, and Europe. Most of Russia's population is in the western part of the country, that borders the much more populated countries with a high demand for Russian fossil fuels.

                          You forget that the generation that fought the North Koreans and Chinese is still alive and that the Koreans don't forget things easily. Yes the new generation is pampered and complacent, but all Korean males are still indoctrinated into the Korean army for a couple years and learn why they could be needed. And Koreans will RAGE when you threaten to end their way of life and live a life of toil in a concentration camp on just rice porridge, no phone, computer or internet. You also fail to mention that there is 24/7 surveillance on the North. A mass mobilization of troops up north would cause an instant alert of the South. There are around 120 M270 MLRS launchers in the South. If firing the right munitions they can wipe out 120 sq km of land area. Imagine that for a second and that's just the first volley. The ROK Air Force and Navy are also well equipped which would quickly doom the North's equivalents.
                          The Europa Barbarorum II team [M2TW] needs YOUR HELP NOW HERE!

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by johns624 View Post
                            Nimitz knew that the day of the battleship was over. Coral Sea taught him that it was going to be a carrier war. Some people, 70 years later, still haven't figured that out.
                            The BBs were the only think that could have faced the Yamato, etc, had they approached Midway in front of the carriers, covered by carrier planes.

                            A BB near Midway would have drawn some planes or shells away from Midway (whether is be bombed or shelled)

                            If he thought that they were useless, it was rather stupid wasting a lot of urgently needed resources repairing them

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                              Because:

                              A. They were surplus guns from old battleships.

                              and

                              B. They were available.

                              Just remember, the Japanese defended many of their Mid-Pacific islands with SNLF battalions similar to a Marine defense battalion with crummier weapons and the US pounded those islands for days before invading with 5 to 10 times as many troops.
                              Midway wasn't going to fall to the Japanese invasion force.
                              It's a good thing Nimitz didn't send any biplane bombers, bronze cannon or Gatlings to Midway.
                              I think it is rather dumb to send all the junk planes and guns and pilots who haven't practiced dive bombing to the frontline, precisely where the largest armada in history is expected to attack and where there is precious little space to place only the best guns and planes.
                              The only old thing that would really have been of any use against the BBs and CAs is the repaired BBs, which were patrolling the US coast. They would have provided additional AAA and attracted some planes too.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Draco View Post
                                It's a good thing Nimitz didn't send any biplane bombers, bronze cannon or Gatlings to Midway.
                                I think it is rather dumb to send all the junk planes and guns and pilots who haven't practiced dive bombing to the frontline, precisely where the largest armada in history is expected to attack and where there is precious little space to place only the best guns.
                                The only old thing that would really have been of any use against the BBs and CAs is the repaired BBs, which were patrolling the US coast. They would have provided additional AAA and attracted some planes too.
                                So? The most common coast defense gun in Japan was the 28cm howitzer manufactured in 1890. It didn't even have a recoil system it was so primitive. On Saipan the coast defenses consisted of 4 pre-WW 1 Armstrong Whitworth 6" rifles until it became obvious to the Japanese military that the US would invade these islands and started doing something to strengthen their defense late in 1943.

                                Admiral Pye's battleline of older US BB's was actually to the North of Hawaii during the Midway operation. They were independent of the carriers because they could only make about 18 knots at most as a group.
                                The cruisers and destroyers with the carriers had AA batteries nearly equivalent to those of a battleship at the time and could maneuver with the carriers. Only an idiot would have tied the carriers to slow battleships.

                                What made US carrier defense effective was a combination of technology and tactics. But, it was more the tactics than technology that did that.
                                As I stated already, the US used carrier controlled intercept with radio and radar. The ring formation also made their AA fire far more effective.

                                Both increased the distance from the carrier that engagement started and that in turn increased the time of engagement. In fact, studies by operations researchers showed that at distances of about 50 miles or more the CAP intercepting would result in near 100% loss of the attacking force.
                                Thus, the CAP was put further and further from the carrier and controllers moved to cruisers and then destroyers.
                                The Japanese at Midway were intercepting at 10 miles or less and had just minutes to work a strike. That resulted in few losses (and no, it has next to ZERO to do with a Zero's armament or ammunition) simply because the CAP had next to no time to attack the strike.
                                By contrast, the US CAP intercepted Japanese strikes from the Soryu at between 40 and 60 miles from the Yorktown and produced roughly 70 to 90% losses among the strike aircraft. (and yes, the CAP tried to ignore the Zero escorts and not mix it up with them as the fighter escort was irrelevant to attacking the carrier).

                                See Methods of Operations Research by Kimball and Morse for example.
                                You might want to actually read some stuff on this as you have no idea what you are talking about right now.

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