Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Alternate History - Part I

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Alternate History - Part I

    Alternate History

    In my college days we'd sometimes sit around and debate woulda's and shoulda's. Like Harry Turtledove (save your $ and avoid his last two books), we'd “hypothize” on alternative history. If Churchill had stepped off that curb in NYC 1 second earlier, would we now be naming our bulldogs, Neville? How would England have fared in WWII without him?

    We're all too serious in this forum, thus, trying something a bit more lighthearted and using the 20th Century, I'll start in the beginning with the following:

    (FACT) WWI has started as it did in RL.

    (FACT) 3/31/16 Pershing Lead Expedition Against Mexican Rebels -After attacks against American border settlements, a force of 15,000 US army soldiers, under the command of General Pershing, led a raid into Mexico against Villa. The raid created animosity within Mexico against the United States.

    (FACT) January 19, 1917:
    The Zimmerman Note to the German Minister to Mexico

    Berlin, January 19, 1917

    On the first of February we intend to begin submarine warfare unrestricted. In spite of this, it is our intention to endeavor to keep neutral the United States of America.

    If this attempt is not successful, we propose an alliance on the following basis with Mexico: That we shall make war together and together make peace. We shall give general financial support, and it is understood that Mexico is to reconquer the lost territory in New Mexico, Texas, and Arizona. The details are left to you for settlement....

    You are instructed to inform the President of Mexico of the above in the greatest confidence as soon as it is certain that there will be an outbreak of war with the United States and suggest that the President of Mexico, on his own initiative, should communicate with Japan suggesting adherence at once to this plan; at the same time, offer to mediate between Germany and Japan.

    Please call to the attention of the President of Mexico that the employment of ruthless submarine warfare now promises to compel England to make peace in a few months.

    Zimmerman
    (Secretary of State)

    (FACT) US forces number around 125,000 at this time and it's border with Mexico is undefended.

    (FACT) A Maj. (or Col.) Richard Schwiertz was one of several thousand German reservists in Mexico. Most had no interest in partaking in overt military operations. During 1917 he informed Berlin's Ambassador Heinrich von Eckhardt that he would be willing to lead a German or German-Mexican incursion in the US.
    Among the targets in relative proximity to the border San Diego was close and important. (Note) If a modest force, ideally mounted, could have been gathered in northern Baja it would
    not have been difficult for it to cross the frontier through the rugged hill country between Tijuana and Mexicali and attack SD from the east. It's worth noting that Gen. Esteban Cantu, the governor of Baja California, was on particularly good terms with German agents and routinely assisted their forays into El Norte.


    (FICTION) Mexico accepts the note and attacks!


    Will Germany now win or get a favorable truce in Europe? Will Mexico become part of the U.S.? Will the U.S. look towards Canada as the last piece to the United States of North America?

    How do you think WWI now would of unfolded?

  • #2
    wuh?! huns in mexico?! never eared of it



    500.000german troops supported by 250.000mexicans cross into the usa, us forces gone for yurrup cant respond in force, after months of bloody fighting the hunno-mexican forces run out of ammo and try to take New York by bayonet. amercans hit back and in 3days push the hunno-mexican axis back to mexico city.





    Last edited by screamer; 01 Jul 03, 19:42.
    French Soldier: You don't frighten us, English pig dogs. Go and boil your bottoms, you sons of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called "Arthur King," you and all your silly English K-nig-hts.

    Comment


    • #3
      LOL

      I think it's be more like small raids into the US and a long delay defense as the US pushed deeper into Mexico. VERY rough terrain so you wouldn't need that many troops to hold it. An end around invasion would happen at some point. The U.S. would, of course, eventually win but at what cost to Europe? Would the French and UK be able to continue the fight without fresh help? I would hazard a guess that a truce would be signed with all countries pulling back to their pre-war borders or at best/worst, Germany taking some French territory. This leaves a much stronger post-war Germany...perhaps one not so ripe for Adolph's picking?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by SkyVon This leaves a much stronger post-war Germany...perhaps one not so ripe for Adolph's picking?
        But still a militaristic Germany who could arguably point to gains achieved from aggression. Maybe no Holocaust, but just as likely another war for the supremacy of Europe.

        Also, the effect on America would've been interesting too. Certainly more security conscience after being attacked from the south and also perhaps more willing to intervene in European events, knowing that European wars would inevitably spill over into the Americas.

        Also an America with large swathes of Mexico annexed.

        Comment


        • #5
          Tex, excellent points.

          I wonder what drain on the US economy would occur if we had to take on Mexico's problems. Of course, the oil would be nice. I'm sure Canada wouldn't look too kindly on an even larger neighbor to the south...but not much they could do about it.

          Comment


          • #6
            Here's a different alternative history:

            1943, after the Stalingrad disaster and the looming invasion of the western allies most german generals realize that the war is lost but Hitler wouldn't listen. Than, an assasination attempt on Hitler.. and it succeeds! The military takes over control but soon realizes that they can't do both: fighting a war and peace-talks so a civil government is installed.
            Soon this government and the western allies agree on a german capitulation, all occupied territory has to be returned and germany has to pay huge reperations. But Stalin isn't interested in peace, he sees his Red Army getting the upper hand and fears to loose control over the soviet occupied Baltic, Bessarabia or finnish terrain again. He also sees a clear possibility to bring the war to germany to occupy the country and incorporate it into the soviet union.
            Germany has no choice but to continue its fight in the east but now with increased manpower as all forces from the occupied countries are directly transfered to the ostfront.

            By the way, would make a good what-if scenario, maybe the USA and UK, as soviet forces get closer to Germany and their intentions become clear, authorize LandLease to germany to prevent them from falling completely under soviet control ??
            "The conventional army loses if it does not win. The guerrilla wins if he does not lose."

            Henry Alfred Kissinger

            Comment


            • #7
              This is OLD

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by SkyVon View Post
                (FACT) US forces number around 125,000 at this time and it's border with Mexico is undefended.
                Are you sure of this? In his biography Rdgeway describes the US Army and State Militias/National Guard parked in the border states from 1914 to 1918. Ridgeway spent WWI as a company commander along the border.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by SkyVon View Post
                  Alternate History

                  In my college days we'd sometimes sit around and debate woulda's and shoulda's. Like Harry Turtledove (save your $ and avoid his last two books), we'd “hypothize” on alternative history. If Churchill had stepped off that curb in NYC 1 second earlier, would we now be naming our bulldogs, Neville? How would England have fared in WWII without him?

                  We're all too serious in this forum, thus, trying something a bit more lighthearted and using the 20th Century, I'll start in the beginning with the following:

                  (FACT) WWI has started as it did in RL.

                  (FACT) 3/31/16 Pershing Lead Expedition Against Mexican Rebels -After attacks against American border settlements, a force of 15,000 US army soldiers, under the command of General Pershing, led a raid into Mexico against Villa. The raid created animosity within Mexico against the United States.

                  (FACT) January 19, 1917:
                  The Zimmerman Note to the German Minister to Mexico

                  Berlin, January 19, 1917

                  On the first of February we intend to begin submarine warfare unrestricted. In spite of this, it is our intention to endeavor to keep neutral the United States of America.

                  If this attempt is not successful, we propose an alliance on the following basis with Mexico: That we shall make war together and together make peace. We shall give general financial support, and it is understood that Mexico is to reconquer the lost territory in New Mexico, Texas, and Arizona. The details are left to you for settlement....

                  You are instructed to inform the President of Mexico of the above in the greatest confidence as soon as it is certain that there will be an outbreak of war with the United States and suggest that the President of Mexico, on his own initiative, should communicate with Japan suggesting adherence at once to this plan; at the same time, offer to mediate between Germany and Japan.

                  Please call to the attention of the President of Mexico that the employment of ruthless submarine warfare now promises to compel England to make peace in a few months.

                  Zimmerman
                  (Secretary of State)

                  (FACT) US forces number around 125,000 at this time and it's border with Mexico is undefended.

                  (FACT) A Maj. (or Col.) Richard Schwiertz was one of several thousand German reservists in Mexico. Most had no interest in partaking in overt military operations. During 1917 he informed Berlin's Ambassador Heinrich von Eckhardt that he would be willing to lead a German or German-Mexican incursion in the US.
                  Among the targets in relative proximity to the border San Diego was close and important. (Note) If a modest force, ideally mounted, could have been gathered in northern Baja it would
                  not have been difficult for it to cross the frontier through the rugged hill country between Tijuana and Mexicali and attack SD from the east. It's worth noting that Gen. Esteban Cantu, the governor of Baja California, was on particularly good terms with German agents and routinely assisted their forays into El Norte.


                  (FICTION) Mexico accepts the note and attacks!


                  Will Germany now win or get a favorable truce in Europe? Will Mexico become part of the U.S.? Will the U.S. look towards Canada as the last piece to the United States of North America?

                  How do you think WWI now would of unfolded?
                  It wouldn't have been the first time that the US fought a "two front war". As soon as the Zimmerman Telegram fell into US hands, following the Mexican Declaration of War, the US would quickly make a beggar's banquet out of Mexico before turning on Germany in even more righteous fury than it historically did. Results: Pretty much the same historical end regarding Germany. Mexico, on the other hand, practically ceases to exist as the US annexes most of it.
                  "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by johnbryan View Post
                    Mexico, on the other hand, practically ceases to exist as the US annexes most of it.
                    Why would we want to do that? Was there really any support for incorporarating any more Mexican territory into the US? Aside from a few businessmen? By 1914 there were already proposals to allow the Phillpines and Puerto Rico independance. Wilson was a bit fuzzy headed at times, but I cant see him supporting annexation of more Mexican acerage and farmers. He had the opportunity to push that in 1914.

                    There was no serious proposal to incorporate Hati in those years even tho the US was in full control of the Hatian government and army. Nor in the case of Nicaragua a decade later when the US Marines took over the country.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                      Why would we want to do that? Was there really any support for incorporarating any more Mexican territory into the US? Aside from a few businessmen? By 1914 there were already proposals to allow the Phillpines and Puerto Rico independance. Wilson was a bit fuzzy headed at times, but I cant see him supporting annexation of more Mexican acerage and farmers. He had the opportunity to push that in 1914.

                      There was no serious proposal to incorporate Hati in those years even tho the US was in full control of the Hatian government and army. Nor in the case of Nicaragua a decade later when the US Marines took over the country.
                      Actually, I was being a bit flippant on the subject and was thinking about the possibility of a resurgence of "Manifest Destiny."
                      "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Sorry...I take this s...t to serious sometimes.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                          Sorry...I take this s...t to serious sometimes.

                          Not a problem. It just means that you're a good, effective historian.
                          "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The Zimmerman letter was real? I'm sure I read somewhere it was fake. But it was real?

                            Comment

                            Latest Topics

                            Collapse

                            Working...
                            X