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armour reserve hits the Normady beachs

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  • Carl Schwamberg
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    As I suggested before, what the Germans needed to defeat an amphibious assault would be a means to defeat the naval forces off shore. Short of having a navy to do that, which wasn't going to happen, the next best thing would have been coastal defense guns in good fortifications that could engage the heaviest ships in the Allied navies off shore with a good chance of serious damage.
    That would have meant 250mm (10") or larger weapons emplaced in sufficient number (say a total of 12 to 18 guns minimum) that could survive an initial bombardment and engage the enemy thereafter.
    That would be quite a project to provide that many heavy cannon for the Atlantic Wall

    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    A secondary system that would have helped considerably would be batteries of very heavy mortars on the scale of 300mm + in size to bombard the beaches themselves.
    Ditto. A hell of a lot of cannon to provide.

    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    The Germans should have also made extensive use of wire in their off-shore anti-boat obstacles to slow a low tide landing like the Allies actually did. This would have given the defense more time to chop up the landing troops.
    They were suposed to, but ran out of wire at the start. What was available was concentrated near the resistance nests. There is also a technical problem with tide & currents wrecking ordinary wire barriers. Heavy anchors have to be used instead of common posts.

    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

    Lots of sea mines off shore would have been useful too. These would slow the invasion as they would have to be swept before a landing could occur.
    They were deployed. There was a extensive set of minefields, a few of which were not identified and swept before the attack. What is really bad from the German PoV is the large minesweeping effort was not spotted. the Germans made contact with a few ships in the channel, but did not grasp these were part of a large 'clearing' fleet in advance of the invasion fleet.

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  • Carl Schwamberg
    replied
    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
    The 21st Panzer Division did reach the beach. They had to retreat from the Naval Gunfire. The Panzer Battalion of the Panzer Regiment composed of mainly ex-French tanks did reach the beach. I can't recall what happened to the Panther Battalion.
    I dont remember a Panther battalion with the 21st PD. As I understand the French tanks had been handed off to 7th Army and replaced with Mk IV, roughly 120 of them. In any case the tanks ran up against AT guns. Several were destroyed on initial contact. Efforts to probe the defense were ended when artillery and air attacks made it to hot to remain deployed for attack. IIRC about 15, were knocked out by enemy fire that day.
    Last edited by Carl Schwamberg; 15 Jan 14, 05:33.

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  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Originally posted by Tuor View Post
    So what was a German optimum plan at Normandy, if massed armor wasn't feasible? After all, at Salerno the germans did contain the beachhead-and threatened for a while to destroy it, wasn't it pressure from the south that allowed the Salerno force to breakout eventually?
    As I suggested before, what the Germans needed to defeat an amphibious assault would be a means to defeat the naval forces off shore. Short of having a navy to do that, which wasn't going to happen, the next best thing would have been coastal defense guns in good fortifications that could engage the heaviest ships in the Allied navies off shore with a good chance of serious damage.
    That would have meant 250mm (10") or larger weapons emplaced in sufficient number (say a total of 12 to 18 guns minimum) that could survive an initial bombardment and engage the enemy thereafter.

    A secondary system that would have helped considerably would be batteries of very heavy mortars on the scale of 300mm + in size to bombard the beaches themselves.
    The Germans should have also made extensive use of wire in their off-shore anti-boat obstacles to slow a low tide landing like the Allies actually did. This would have given the defense more time to chop up the landing troops.

    Lots of sea mines off shore would have been useful too. These would slow the invasion as they would have to be swept before a landing could occur.

    If they cannot defeat the naval portion of the landing, they cannot defeat the landing itself.

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  • tigersqn
    replied
    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
    I had thought the Airborne had dropped the night before? What units were these?

    Pruitt

    250 gliders of 6th AL Bde made a resupply drop on the afternoon of 6th June to reinforce the Orne beachhead.
    It was these gliders that the 22nd PGr Rgt(?) saw, which led to the attack being cancelled. They thought the British were jumping in behind them.

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  • Pruitt
    replied
    I had thought the Airborne had dropped the night before? What units were these?

    Pruitt

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  • redcoat
    replied
    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
    The 21st Panzer Division did reach the beach. They had to retreat from the Naval Gunfire. The Panzer Battalion of the Panzer Regiment composed of mainly ex-French tanks did reach the beach. I can't recall what happened to the Panther Battalion.

    Pruitt
    Some units did reach a beach but it was in the unoccupied area between the beach heads, but when they saw airborne forces being dropped to their rear, they lost their nerve and retreated.
    Their attack on the Sword beach head was thrown back almost as soon as it started

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  • Tuor
    replied
    So what was a German optimum plan at Normandy, if massed armor wasn't feasible? After all, at Salerno the germans did contain the beachhead-and threatened for a while to destroy it, wasn't it pressure from the south that allowed the Salerno force to breakout eventually?

    Leave a comment:


  • Pruitt
    replied
    The 21st Panzer Division did reach the beach. They had to retreat from the Naval Gunfire. The Panzer Battalion of the Panzer Regiment composed of mainly ex-French tanks did reach the beach. I can't recall what happened to the Panther Battalion.

    Pruitt

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  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    You have to remember, that the Germans in Normandy were going up against the equivalent in their own terms of 7 strong panzergrenadier divisions and 3 strong fallschirmjäger divisions. That means realistically they need something like 30 full strength panzer and panzergrenadier divisions at a minimum to have a hope of succeeding.

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  • Aber
    replied
    Originally posted by andrewza View Post
    What if say Rommel was in France on D-day and ordered a the panzers to attack the allies on the beaches?
    What, like 21st Panzer tried? - stopped in its tracks by the ground forces.

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  • Roddoss72
    replied
    A whole heap of German scrap metal.

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  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    That worked so well at Salerno....

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  • Skoblin
    replied
    Originally posted by andrewza View Post
    What if say Rommel was in France on D-day and ordered a the panzers to attack the allies on the beaches?

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  • Tuor
    replied
    1)How much was positioned for immediate deployment?

    2) I don't think Rommel would have dared risk the wrath of the Fuhrer
    by using armor without Adolf's approval. Even his (alleged)
    involvement in the bomb plot was vague, if even existent.

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  • The Purist
    replied
    Lots of destroyed German tanks within range of Allied destroyer and cruiser guns. Everytime German armour tried to intervene in allied beachheads and the navy could get at them the tanks were were smashed.

    Sicily
    Salerno
    Anzio

    No single example can be produced that showed more than local successes by German armour counterattacking the invading forces.

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