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How would Africa would look like if ethnicities would have their own states?

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  • How would Africa would look like if ethnicities would have their own states?

    From decolonisation on of course.
    I assume there would be much less war and some countries lout side of South Africa would have western living standards.

    Speculate.
    texjoy861 from youtube:

    "Aaron Sorkin writes like a limousine liberal version of Ayn Rand. None of the characters sound remotely like human beings."

  • #2
    By ethnicity:



    By religion:



    By language:



    I'd say, Let the wars begin! As you can see anyway you slice it Africa has such a diversity of language, culture, religion, and other stuff it is inevitable that conflict will result. Multiculturialism has a steep price....

    Comment


    • #3
      An interesting thought experiment, and the Middle East could be included. Instead of Churchill-created Iraq a Syria and Sunni Iraq state, and a Kurdish state of northern Iraq and southeastern Turkey (not Kurdish Iran-Iran, of course, is the core of a state/civilization going back well before the Greek/Persian unpleasantries). Two African countries with major changes would be Nigeria and the "Belgian" Congo, two countries colonially created with the result of leading to numerous incidents of the heart of darkness. A zulu kingdom in an uncolonialized Africa, or retaining its independence like Japan or Thailand, would have led to "interesting" geopolitics in southern Africa.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
        By religion:

        This map isn't worth the paper its printed on. Just from one area I know well, Ethiopia, it has some howlers. Coptic Christians are concentrated in the north & centre of Ethiopia, the south is a mixture of Coptic, other Christian, Muslim & traditional religions. The heartland of Coptic Christianity is very close to the Eritrean border and extends down to where 'Ethiopia' is printed on the map. Eritrea is put in the 'Muslim' zone despite being 50% Coptic Christian.

        Based on that I wouldn't make many judgements using it as a tool.

        I'd say, Let the wars begin! As you can see anyway you slice it Africa has such a diversity of language, culture, religion, and other stuff it is inevitable that conflict will result. Multiculturialism has a steep price....
        So does one ethnic group trying to dominate. In fact, a great many problems in Africa have stemmed from this. Ethiopia has experienced its greatest period of ethnic peace in the past 20 years by devolving more power to the various ethnic groups & allowing them to learn in their own languages as well as Amharic. Africa nations are actually the places that need 'multiculturalism' the most, if not the precise formulation some Westerners use. Some nations would benefit from a Swiss-style confederation, others from federal arrangements, others from unitary states but with recognition of ethnic difference embedded.Trying to impose a single identity without allowing for tribal difference hasn't really been a winner. Trying to drag American 'culture wars' into an African context is even more stupid.

        For the OP, it seems unlikely Africa would or could ever have been divided precisely as you discuss. Larger & more powerful tribes would still tend to dominate others nearby as they have done in Europe (again, Ethiopia provides an example). Some tribes could create viable nations by themselves, others could not. There would probably be less internal conflict, but possibly more wars between nations.

        I think I would re-phrase the proposition to 'what would have happened if Africans had created their own national boundaries'. The difference is that rather than lines being drawn by outsiders for their convenience the lines would have been created by Africans based on their history. It wouldn't be perfect or solve every problem, but it would probably have worked better than the current arrangement did.
        Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by BF69 View Post
          This map isn't worth the paper its printed on. Just from one area I know well, Ethiopia, it has some howlers. Coptic Christians are concentrated in the north & centre of Ethiopia, the south is a mixture of Coptic, other Christian, Muslim & traditional religions. The heartland of Coptic Christianity is very close to the Eritrean border and extends down to where 'Ethiopia' is printed on the map. Eritrea is put in the 'Muslim' zone despite being 50% Coptic Christian.

          Based on that I wouldn't make many judgements using it as a tool.
          Based on that one little corner of the map?
          Typical, ship away at one little item to drag down the whole scene.

          Your estimates of Ethiopian Religiosity is only half right;


          And the light tan in the map in question is a combination of local religions and Christianity.

          Originally posted by BF69 View Post
          Trying to drag American 'culture wars' into an African context is even more stupid.
          As stupid as applying Australian norms to American culture and politics?
          Maybe, but the ANC has not exactly been all gang-busters to solve these problems, either.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by BF69 View Post
            This map isn't worth the paper its printed on. Just from one area I know well, Ethiopia, it has some howlers. Coptic Christians are concentrated in the north & centre of Ethiopia, the south is a mixture of Coptic, other Christian, Muslim & traditional religions. The heartland of Coptic Christianity is very close to the Eritrean border and extends down to where 'Ethiopia' is printed on the map. Eritrea is put in the 'Muslim' zone despite being 50% Coptic Christian.

            Based on that I wouldn't make many judgements using it as a tool.



            So does one ethnic group trying to dominate. In fact, a great many problems in Africa have stemmed from this. Ethiopia has experienced its greatest period of ethnic peace in the past 20 years by devolving more power to the various ethnic groups & allowing them to learn in their own languages as well as Amharic. Africa nations are actually the places that need 'multiculturalism' the most, if not the precise formulation some Westerners use. Some nations would benefit from a Swiss-style confederation, others from federal arrangements, others from unitary states but with recognition of ethnic difference embedded.Trying to impose a single identity without allowing for tribal difference hasn't really been a winner. Trying to drag American 'culture wars' into an African context is even more stupid.

            For the OP, it seems unlikely Africa would or could ever have been divided precisely as you discuss. Larger & more powerful tribes would still tend to dominate others nearby as they have done in Europe (again, Ethiopia provides an example). Some tribes could create viable nations by themselves, others could not. There would probably be less internal conflict, but possibly more wars between nations.

            I think I would re-phrase the proposition to 'what would have happened if Africans had created their own national boundaries'. The difference is that rather than lines being drawn by outsiders for their convenience the lines would have been created by Africans based on their history. It wouldn't be perfect or solve every problem, but it would probably have worked better than the current arrangement did.
            I expressed one idea originally: Whether it is religion, language, culture, ethnicity, Africa is heavily divided across the entire continent. Much like Europe 1000 years ago or the Americas before Columbus it is divided into numerous tribal entities that all hate each other to one degree or another. The maps don't have to be 100% accurate to show that.
            That is Africa today and if you were to make nations by those standards warfare would still occur and probably on an even greater level than it does today.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
              Based on that one little corner of the map?
              Typical, ship away at one little item to drag down the whole scene.
              That 'one little corner of the map 'is the second largest African nation by population. it also features 2 nations which the map completely stuffed up. It is also one area I happen to be familiar with. I wonder what a more in depth knowledge of other parts might yield? If that one part is so badly wrong why should I trust the rest?

              Your estimates of Ethiopian Religiosity is only half right;
              No, it is 100% correct. I Notice what I said about what regions:

              Coptic Christians are concentrated in the north & centre of Ethiopia, the south is a mixture of Coptic, other Christian, Muslim & traditional religions. The heartland of Coptic Christianity is very close to the Eritrean border and extends down to where 'Ethiopia' is printed on the map. Eritrea is put in the 'Muslim' zone despite being 50% Coptic Christian.
              Having just spent years in the company of Ethiopians & some considerable time l months reading up on Ethiopian society & history in preparation for a 3 week journey around Ethiopia I felt pretty confident in my assertion. However, since you are clearly in a mood I actually found a nice map showing Ethiopia's different states:

              (how the hell do you properly insert images here? it won't work from the url & as an attachment it comes up tiny)

              Ethiopia-Religion-Map2[1].jpg

              Look at what it says. See those Christian concentrations in the Nth. They are Coptic Christian. Tigray is the heartland of Coptic Christianity (as I said) and Amhara close behind. The big green Muslim Afar part looks impressive, but that is mostly inhospitable desert. Its population is less than 10% of Amhara. Oromia is a bit deceptive because of its odd shape. The western half shifts from heavily Coptic to 'other Christian', Coptic and animist as it moves south. The Eastern half is more heavily Muslim.

              And the light tan in the map in question is a combination of local religions and Christianity.
              Yes, and it runs smack bang through Tigray & Amhara. That yellow blotch should run from somewhere around where it says 'Ethiopia' up to the Red Sea in Eritrea. Eritrea, of course, shouldn't be in the 'muslim' zone, but divided between Coptic & muslim.

              Anything else?

              As stupid as applying Australian norms to American culture and politics?
              Comparing two New World nations from the Anglosphere is perfectly reasonable. Using this topic to push an American political point is not.

              Maybe, but the ANC has not exactly been all gang-busters to solve these problems, either.
              Politically connected tribal violence sponsored in part by the white minority government claimed something like 14,000 lives in the last 5 years of apartheid rule. What is the picture in relation to tribal conflict in the 20 years since? perfect? I doubt it. A vast improvement? You bet.

              Now, do you actually have a contribution to make here or are you just going to be a and try to score points off me on topics that you are neither informed on or interested in? That is what PC is for Exo, but you already know that.
              Last edited by BF69; 02 Jan 14, 23:51.
              Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                I expressed one idea originally: Whether it is religion, language, culture, ethnicity, Africa is heavily divided across the entire continent. Much like Europe 1000 years ago or the Americas before Columbus it is divided into numerous tribal entities that all hate each other to one degree or another. The maps don't have to be 100% accurate to show that.
                That is Africa today and if you were to make nations by those standards warfare would still occur and probably on an even greater level than it does today.
                A perfectly fine idea, it just didn't require the gratuitous & out of place commentary on 'multiculturalism'. I have no issue with most of what you have written here, though the 'all hate each other' is an exaggeration. Some do, some don't. There is no way to know just wha the state of relations would be today if borders had more accurately reflected patterns of ethnicity. I would suggest, however, that had African nations been able to establish their borders more on their own terms they would have more overall internal cohesion.
                Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by BF69 View Post
                  A perfectly fine idea, it just didn't require the gratuitous & out of place commentary on 'multiculturalism'. I have no issue with most of what you have written here, though the 'all hate each other' is an exaggeration. Some do, some don't. There is no way to know just wha the state of relations would be today if borders had more accurately reflected patterns of ethnicity. I would suggest, however, that had African nations been able to establish their borders more on their own terms they would have more overall internal cohesion.
                  It wasn't gratiutious. Multiculturialism and diversity breed contempt and strife not unity. Multiple languages, multiple cultures in particular shoved together and forced into living together are a common cause of civil war.

                  That isn't true just in Africa. It is true anywhere.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    There exceptions, like Belgium.
                    texjoy861 from youtube:

                    "Aaron Sorkin writes like a limousine liberal version of Ayn Rand. None of the characters sound remotely like human beings."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by BF69 View Post
                      That 'one little corner of the map 'is the second largest African nation by population. it also features 2 nations which the map completely stuffed up. It is also one area I happen to be familiar with. I wonder what a more in depth knowledge of other parts might yield? If that one part is so badly wrong why should I trust the rest?
                      What the map shows me is that religion is more of a unifying force (potentially) than the other things shown in the other maps.
                      Thats pretty much all there is too it.

                      Originally posted by BF69 View Post
                      No, it is 100% correct. I Notice what I said about what regions:
                      Oh, Heaven forfend!
                      A map the size of the palm of my hand shows one tiny yellow dot where there should be two slightly smaller ones, right nest to each other.



                      Originally posted by BF69 View Post
                      (how the hell do you properly insert images here? it won't work from the url & as an attachment it comes up tiny)
                      It ain't Rocket Science.


                      Originally posted by BF69 View Post
                      Comparing two New World nations from the Anglosphere is perfectly reasonable. Using this topic to push an American political point is not.
                      The Melting Pot worked better for us than what Africans have is working for them. So many wars of Genocide that I'm not sure where to begin, but how about Biafra, Rwanda and Sudan for starters.
                      New World nations from the Angloshpere?
                      We kicked those guys out good & early while you guys were saying "Bye your leave mi'lord" right up when Color TVs started coming out. No comparison.

                      Originally posted by BF69 View Post
                      Politically connected tribal violence sponsored in part by the white minority government claimed something like 14,000 lives in the last 5 years of apartheid rule. What is the picture in relation to tribal conflict in the 20 years since? perfect? I doubt it. A vast improvement? You bet.
                      And what did the ANC have to do with that?
                      Not even a fraction of what International pressure and sanctions did.

                      Originally posted by BF69 View Post
                      Now, do you actually have a contribution to make here or are you just going to be a and try to score points off me on topics that you are neither informed on or interested in? That is what PC is for Exo, but you already know that.
                      Still rankles you a lot that I started having a lookin there once in a while, I see. Must have been getting away with murder when I was away.
                      I'll stack my world knowlege against yours any day. 16 foreign nations in 5 years and 42 states.

                      The difference between us is that I like to help keep people informed, while you just show up to annoy people you don't like on a Website you openly mock for being "too right-wing."

                      Stop doing that, and I'll forget all about you in a matter of days.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
                        What the map shows me is that religion is more of a unifying force (potentially) than the other things shown in the other maps.
                        Thats pretty much all there is too it.



                        Oh, Heaven forfend!
                        A map the size of the palm of my hand shows one tiny yellow dot where there should be two slightly smaller ones, right nest to each other.





                        It ain't Rocket Science.




                        The Melting Pot worked better for us than what Africans have is working for them. So many wars of Genocide that I'm not sure where to begin, but how about Biafra, Rwanda and Sudan for starters.
                        New World nations from the Angloshpere?
                        We kicked those guys out good & early while you guys were saying "Bye your leave mi'lord" right up when Color TVs started coming out. No comparison.


                        And what did the ANC have to do with that?
                        Not even a fraction of what International pressure and sanctions did.


                        Still rankles you a lot that I started having a lookin there once in a while, I see. Must have been getting away with murder when I was away.
                        I'll stack my world knowlege against yours any day. 16 foreign nations in 5 years and 42 states.

                        The difference between us is that I like to help keep people informed, while you just show up to annoy people you don't like on a Website you openly mock for being "too right-wing."

                        Stop doing that, and I'll forget all about you in a matter of days.
                        16 nations? How quaint. Passed that before I finished puberty & have doubled it since. Haven't done as many states, but I'm comfortably over half way to a full set.

                        Clearly you have nothing to contribute here except taking potshots at me.
                        Last edited by BF69; 03 Jan 14, 03:08.
                        Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                          It wasn't gratiutious. Multiculturialism and diversity breed contempt and strife not unity. Multiple languages, multiple cultures in particular shoved together and forced into living together are a common cause of civil war.

                          That isn't true just in Africa. It is true anywhere.
                          'Multiculturalism' is a western concept political developed in western nations for those conditions. In fact, it is best applied to the migrant societies of the New World where it was developed, or to nations where migration drives diversity. This isn't simply a quibble, it is the wrong terminology & wrong concept. It simply doesn't apply here no matter how much you want it to.

                          The question of how you manage ethnic relations in nations divided between different tribal groups with deep historical/cultural/religious links to place is an interesting one, but this isn't the right place for this discussion.

                          The question here was about African states largely based on tribal groups - which would reduce (if not eliminate) ethnic diversity within states. So using your formulation this should reduce conflict.
                          Last edited by BF69; 03 Jan 14, 03:09.
                          Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                            It wasn't gratiutious. Multiculturialism and diversity breed contempt and strife not unity. Multiple languages, multiple cultures in particular shoved together and forced into living together are a common cause of civil war.

                            That isn't true just in Africa. It is true anywhere.
                            IF, if that would be true how can you explain the success of the USofA. Your boat won't float. It sank at launching.
                            "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                            Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                            you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                              It wasn't gratiutious. Multiculturialism and diversity breed contempt and strife not unity. Multiple languages, multiple cultures in particular shoved together and forced into living together are a common cause of civil war.

                              That isn't true just in Africa. It is true anywhere.
                              Tell the Swiss about that.
                              There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

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