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  • Your WW2 Infantry Division?

    Imagine you are in charge of procuring kit for a neutral country during WW2 and you need to kit out several infantry divisions.
    What would you wish to choose and how would your division OOB look like?
    Kit limited to what was actually produced by 6.6.44 and used in combat by 7.7.44.

    Mine below .

    Section
    Infantry Section:
    8 with LE No5.1, 2 Brens. Mo36 Mills bombs as grenades.

    Platoon
    3 Sections plus a HQ section per platoon.
    Platoon HQ Section:
    10 with LE No5.1 and No 36 Mills bombs. 1 also carries a 2" mortar, and 1-2 with Panzerschreks.

    Company
    3 Platoons plus a HQ Section per Company.
    Company HQ Section:
    10 with LE No5.1 and No 36 Mills bombs.

    Battalion
    4 Companies per Battalion plus Battalion HQ platoon and Heavy Weapon Company.
    Battalion HQ Company:
    40 with LE No5.1 and No 36 Mills bombs.
    Heavy Weapons Company with AT, Mortar, Recce, Signals, Assault Pioneer and Admin Platoons.
    AT Platoon:
    Six 6 pounder AT guns using apds with 7 carriers. 28 men with 7 Brens and 21 LE No5.1.
    Mortar Platoon:
    Six 3" mortars with 14 carriers. 56men with 14 Brens and 42 LE No5.1.
    Recce Platoon:
    56 men with 14 Brens and 42 LE No5.1 in 14 Carriers. 12 carriers also have a Panzerschrek or 2" mortar. 8 man HQ section in 2 Carriers, three 12 man infantry sections in 3 carriers each.
    Assault Pioneer Platoon.
    56 men with LE No5.1, in dodge 3/4 ton 4x4 trucks. M7 AT grenades and M2 flamethrowers available as required. 20 men with 5 Carriers and 4 Vickers mgs.
    Signal Platoon
    40 men with LE No5.1.
    Admin Platoon
    40 men with LE No5.1.

    Brigade
    3 Battalions per Brigade plus Brigade HQ and Brigade Support.
    Brigade HQ
    40 Men and Dodge 3/4 ton 4x4 trucks
    Brigade AT Troop.
    4 Archer plus 1 Valentine XI.
    Brigade AA Troop.
    1 Carrier plus 6 M16 AAA.
    Brigade Mortars
    12 4.2" mortars in 28 Dodge 3/4 4x4 trucks..

    Division
    3 Brigades to a division, plus Div HQ, Recce Regt, Tank Battalion, 3 Field Artillery Regts, AAA Battalion, AT Battalion, Engineer Battalion.
    Divisional HQ:
    40 Men with LE No5.1.
    Tank Battalion:
    40 Churchill VIIís, 9 Churchill VIIIís, 1 Churchill VII FOO, 5 Valentine X, 3 Churchill ARV, 3 Churchill Bridgelayers, 2 Crusader III 40mm AAA, 2 Crusader II twin 20mm AAA.
    AT Battalion:
    36 M10 Achilles and 18 Dingo S/Cís in 9 Ďindependentí batteries.
    AAA Battalion:
    3 Companies of eighteen towed 40mm Bofors (in three 6 gun batteries).
    Recce Regt:
    Essentially an Infantry Battalion (see above) but with each standard infantry section replaced by one Dingo s/c and one Daimler a/c. In addition, each company has an infantry platoon mounted in M3 half-tracks, plus 2 M18 Hellcats (8 in total) to replace the AT and recce platoons.
    Engineer Battalion:
    As per US WW2 infantry division, with the addition of 3 Churchill AVREís, 3 Churchill Crocodiles, 3 Sherman Tankdozers with 105mm howitzers, plus 3 Sherman Crabs.
    3 Field Artillery Regts:
    Each Regt has twenty four 25pdrs in three 8 gun batteries.

    Note 1: The Lee Enfield No5 Mk1 carbine (LE No5.1) is the main 'rifle', but any NCO, Officer or trooper carrying heavier kit may have a Thompson Smg instead. Pistol is the M1911 which uses the same ammo as the Thompson. I wanted to choose the Beretta Model 38 smg, but could not find a matching pistol. If The Bren could be chambered for the 7.62mm round, then I would take the M1 Garand as my main rifle.

    Note 2: Heavier artillery is kept at corps or army level, not divisional.

    Note 3: If only one division was to be raised I would include enough trucks for transport. If several divisions were to be raised I would have seperate brigades of transport allocated to where they were most needed, to save on non combat manpower.

    Note 4: The above is generally a hybrid of the US and British formations and kit.
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  • #2
    I would assume that replacements are not a problem, so I would go with a little bigger units:
    Squad- 12 em with two fire teams (BAR, Assistant BAR, two Garands), Squad Leader and Assistant SL with Thompsons or Owens. One Scout Sharpshooter with Sniper Garand, 1 Grenadier with Garand and Rifle Grenade attachment.
    Platoon- Three Squads, One Heavy Weapons Squad with 3 Thirty Caliber Medium Machine Guns (Brownings or BRENS) (3 Gunners, 3 Assistant Gunners, 3 Ammo Carriers, One Bazooka Gunner and Assistant), Platoon leader (Carbine), Platoon Sergeant (Carbine), Radioman (Carbine), two Runners (Garands).
    Company- Three Platoons, One Heavy Weapons Platoon (Two Water Cooled Thirty Caliber Squads of four Brownings each and Gunner, Assistant Gunner, Three Ammo carriers, Two Sergeant Squad Leaders, all em have carbines). One Mortar Squad with two 60mm Mortars (Gunner, Assistant Gunner, Three Ammo Carriers, Two Sergeant Squad Leaders, all em have Carbines). Company HQ Section with CO, XO, First Shirt, Mess Sergeant, Two Cooks, Armorer, Training NCO, Radioman, Company Clerk, Three Runners. All carry Carbines, Officers also have either Colt 1911 or Browning High Powers (depending on whether they carry Thompsons or Owens).
    I will get back to you on the rest.

    Pruitt
    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

    Comment


    • #3
      Let's start with just the squad.

      I'd go with 12 men.

      2 x MG 34 re-chambered for 30.06 to keep the ammo the same all around. (I am taking the leeway to allow for common ammo as that would be reasonable. The weapon is otherwise the same.)

      2 x M1 rifles with the grenade launcher attachment using either the standard clip for a Mk II or equivalent grenade or the M9A1 HEAT round. That gives the squad a lot of HE and AT firepower to 100 yards.

      1 man with an M1917 Springfield sniper's rifle.
      The other 7 get either M1 Garands, or an SMG of various manufacture. The company HQ would hold 14 SMG to allow swapping between the M1 and the SMG.
      A "Handi-talkie would be provided as required.

      This gives the squad two very capable fire teams with a movable LMG and a grenade launcher in each section. A sniper would be an added bonus for the squad leader to deploy.
      No heavy special antitank weapon to haul around. The squad MG is not clip fed making it easier to haul more ammo for.
      What you end up with is two 4 man fire teams with a LMG and a grenade launcher with two men hauling more ammunition. The squad leader and assistant can supplement this to 5 men each. The sniper and radio man with the handi-talkie are controlled by the squad leader normally.
      Alternately, you can have 2 three man teams built around an LMG and a section with the grenaders and sniper for moderate range support of the LMG teams. This makes the squad far more flexible in its usage.
      This also gives the squad nominally at least two runners if communications breaks down as two riflemen could be pulled or the handi talkie man can be used.

      Choose the SMG of your choice as it really doesn't make much of a difference here. This option is so the squad can switch between close combat in built up areas and fighting in more open areas as necessary.

      Comment


      • #4
        22,000 men +

        2 Tank battalions (M4 Sherman) 2 Heavy tank companies (Tiger I)

        2 mechanized Infantry battalions (1. Recon 2. line 3. line 4. Heavy company)

        6 motorized infantry battalions (1. Assault Engineer company 2. line 3. line 4. Heavy company with HMG, mortars, and antitank guns)

        1 Heavy engineer battalion

        1 Signals battalion

        2 Mechanized artillery battalions

        3 towed Artillery battalions (medium and heavy)

        1 rocket battalion

        -At the core, a mech. close knit task force of 1 battalion medium tanks, 1 company heavy tanks, 1 battalion mech. infantry, 1 battalion SP artillery supported. Rocket battalion and Heavy engineer battalion supports the two task forces.

        -The motorized group is 6 battalion Infantry supported by 3 battalion towed artillery.

        ////////

        For contrast, my Armored division is organized around the same principles:

        18,000 men +

        5 medium tank battalions , 5 heavy companies

        5 (heavy) mechanized infantry battalions (1. Recon 2. line 3. line, 4.line 5. heavy)

        5 (heavy, with additional batteries) mechanized artillery battalions

        1 signals battalion

        1 Heavy engineer brigade

        1 rocket brigade

        1 Armored calvary battalion

        1 pair of recon planes.
        Last edited by Cult Icon; 19 Dec 13, 19:40.
        Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
        Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
        Barbarossa Derailed I & II
        Battle of Kalinin October 1941

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
          Let's start with just the squad.

          I'd go with 12 men.

          2 x MG 34 re-chambered for 30.06 to keep the ammo the same all around. (I am taking the leeway to allow for common ammo as that would be reasonable. The weapon is otherwise the same.)

          2 x M1 rifles with the grenade launcher attachment using either the standard clip for a Mk II or equivalent grenade or the M9A1 HEAT round. That gives the squad a lot of HE and AT firepower to 100 yards.

          1 man with an M1917 Springfield sniper's rifle.
          The other 7 get either M1 Garands, or an SMG of various manufacture. The company HQ would hold 14 SMG to allow swapping between the M1 and the SMG.
          A "Handi-talkie would be provided as required.

          This gives the squad two very capable fire teams with a movable LMG and a grenade launcher in each section. A sniper would be an added bonus for the squad leader to deploy.
          No heavy special antitank weapon to haul around. The squad MG is not clip fed making it easier to haul more ammo for.
          What you end up with is two 4 man fire teams with a LMG and a grenade launcher with two men hauling more ammunition. The squad leader and assistant can supplement this to 5 men each. The sniper and radio man with the handi-talkie are controlled by the squad leader normally.
          Alternately, you can have 2 three man teams built around an LMG and a section with the grenaders and sniper for moderate range support of the LMG teams. This makes the squad far more flexible in its usage.
          This also gives the squad nominally at least two runners if communications breaks down as two riflemen could be pulled or the handi talkie man can be used.

          Choose the SMG of your choice as it really doesn't make much of a difference here. This option is so the squad can switch between close combat in built up areas and fighting in more open areas as necessary.

          I chose LE No5 Mk1 as my 'main rifle' to keep ammo the same, since I really believe the Bren is the best squad/section level mg. However, we know that re chambering a small arm is not a problem, and if such was possible, I would go M1 Garand instead of the bolt action Lee Enfield.

          I would definitely not choose a BAR over a Bren.

          It should be noted that a single Bren was found not to give quite enough firepower to a section, hence my doubling up on its number. This was found to be the fault of it being a magazine fed weapon, rather than belt fed according to operational research. However, it was reported by recce regiments that their increase in firepower was often instrumental between success and failure, and their doubling up on Brens appears to be the main difference in firepower. When I was in, it took the Falklands to realize that two lmg's per section was really required in infantry battalions, and with the benefit of hindsight I've included two.

          Unlike the original WW2 US or German company TOE, I've not given them a heavy weapon platoon. I believe the Germans went too far in cascading kit down the line, diffusing the ability to concentrate firepower. Likewise I did not use a US heavy weapons company, simply because I wanted lighter kit so that troops at the sharp end could carry more ammo and grenades, by foot if necessary.

          What I did do is beef up the Brigade level's (Regimental level in US terms I believe) firepower, especially with an additional heavy mortar troop. I know from British reports that the Battalions 3" mortars were being used far more often as the war progressed, and this is one area that I definitely believe British and US units lacked. I mentioned 4.2" mortars and iirc the US version was superior to the British one.

          I would use 25pdrs instead of 105mm guns as divisional artillery. The British found that while a US round was more efficient in terms of HE in each shell, the British round had a superior cacophonic effect, ie a better ability to stun opponent for up to 30 minutes or so after a barrage has ended.

          One major element I did take from the US TOE evaluation was attaching a permanant tank battalion to each division. Being me, I added Churchills , but having a dedicated unit of tanks with the the ability to shoot HE from behind armoured plate in support of infantry was found to be incredibly important.

          I will admit that if I were on a budget, and wanted cost effective kit, a great deal more Soviet items would be included
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          Comment


          • #6
            For a Battalion I would have three Companies of Infantry a Heavy Weapons Company and a HQ unit.

            The Heavy Weapons Company would include a Mortar Platoon of 6 Eighty one mm Mortars, an Antitank Platoon of three 57mm guns, a Platoon of Bazookas. Em would carry Carbines and Officers would get either a Colt M1911 or Browning Hi Power.

            The HQ would include a CO, XO, Sergeant Major, Radio Team of three men, Support Section would include S-1, S-2 and S-3 (1st or Second Lieutenants). There would be a small Defense Platoon of 18 men with 4 Fire Teams (same as above, CO and Platoon Sergeant, the BAR would be modeled on the FN BAR with its detachable barrel). A Battalion Aid Section with battalion Surgeon and four Medics, eight Litter Bearers.

            The Regiment would have three Battalions of the above, plus a Mortar Company (120mm or 4.1") of 8 tubes. There would be an Antitank Company of 6 guns. There would be the same small Defense Platoon attached to HQ. The HQ would have a CO, XO, Regimental SM, Radio Section, Support Section with S-1, S-2, S-3 and a Mess Section. There will also be a Medical Evacuation Section. With three Surgeons, 12 Medics and 24 Litter Bearers. The Regimental Band will double as Litter Bearers.

            Pruitt
            Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

            Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

            by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post

              I chose LE No5 Mk1 as my 'main rifle' to keep ammo the same, since I really believe the Bren is the best squad/section level mg. However, we know that re chambering a small arm is not a problem, and if such was possible, I would go M1 Garand instead of the bolt action Lee Enfield.
              Look up the Bren L4. It was rechambered for 7.62 NATO which is almost the same as 30.06 US. That was actually done.

              I'd definitely not choose a BAR over a Bren.
              No argument there. The BAR is far too small a capacity weapon and has no barrel change feature to make a good basis for a squad automatic weapon.

              It should be noted that a single Bren was found not to give quite enough firepower to a section, hence my doubling up on its number. This was found to be the fault of it being a magazine fed weapon, rather than belt fed according to operational research. However, it was reported by recce regiments that their increase in firepower was often instrumental between success and failure, and their doubling up on Brens appears to be the main difference in firepower. When I was in, it took the Falklands to realize that two lmg's per section was really required in infantry battalions, and with the benefit of hindsight I've included two.
              That's why I chose two MG 34. The Germans got that one right. The MG 34 is what a squad really needs. A full machinegun that is light enough to be used on the move. With those 50 round drums it can be used offensively and be belt fed defensively.
              You need the grenade launchers to counter enemy machineguns and also for antitank work close up. This is preferable to piling a speciality weapon on the squad like the panzerfaust (heavy to tote) or bazooka / Piat (another heavy piece of gear with special rounds to haul along).
              Also, you need the ability to swap between close in firepower (SMG / assault rifle and long rifle) hence giving a number of SMG to the company HQ for distribution as needed.

              Unlike the original WW2 US or German company TOE, I've not given them a heavy weapon platoon. I believe the Germans went too far in cascading kit down the line, diffusing the ability to concentrate firepower. Likewise I did not use a US heavy weapons company, simply because I wanted lighter kit so that troops at the sharp end could carry more ammo and grenades, by foot if necessary.
              I'll do a company level one tomorrow some time. But, I think a weapons company is a good idea but it should have ones that are largely man portable rather than something that really needs a vehicle to haul around.

              Comment


              • #8
                Actually FN of Belgium redesigned the BAR to give it a detachable barrel. That is why I chose it for my fire teams. If I can get a BREN in 30X6 I might use it as the Machine Gun in my Platoon. If I can't go that route the 30 Caliber Browning 1919A4. I considered the MG 34 and 42, but think they fired too fast for most actions. For Battalion Heavy Machine Gun I went with the water cooled version of the Browning, the M1917A1. It fires the same cartridge as the rest of my long weapons.

                Pruitt
                Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                  Actually FN of Belgium redesigned the BAR to give it a detachable barrel. That is why I chose it for my fire teams. If I can get a BREN in 30X6 I might use it as the Machine Gun in my Platoon. If I can't go that route the 30 Caliber Browning 1919A4. I considered the MG 34 and 42, but think they fired too fast for most actions. For Battalion Heavy Machine Gun I went with the water cooled version of the Browning, the M1917A1. It fires the same cartridge as the rest of my long weapons.

                  Pruitt
                  For what it's worth I agree with you on your point of the MG34/42 firing too fast.
                  The actual primary use of an LMG in the section/squad assault role is to keep the baddies heads down as your assault sections close in.
                  If I were a baddy in a trench and I had lost the firefight,ie,ducked! I wouldn't be counting the rounds smashing into the parapet,I would just need to know that to peek outside is a very bad idea indeed.
                  From the attackers POV a good steady and above all accurate and sustainable rate of fire is desired.The MG34/42 gobbles up ammo like nothing else and is simply not as sustainable as a magazine fed weapon.

                  Defence-Belt fed.
                  Offence-Magazine.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
                    22,000 men +

                    2 Tank battalions (M4 Sherman) 2 Heavy tank companies (Tiger I)

                    2 mechanized Infantry battalions (1. Recon 2. line 3. line 4. Heavy company)

                    6 motorized infantry battalions (1. Assault Engineer company 2. line 3. line 4. Heavy company with HMG, mortars, and antitank guns)

                    1 Heavy engineer battalion

                    1 Signals battalion

                    2 Mechanized artillery battalions

                    3 towed Artillery battalions (medium and heavy)

                    1 rocket battalion

                    -At the core, a mech. close knit task force of 1 battalion medium tanks, 1 company heavy tanks, 1 battalion mech. infantry, 1 battalion SP artillery supported. Rocket battalion and Heavy engineer battalion supports the two task forces.

                    -The motorized group is 6 battalion Infantry supported by 3 battalion towed artillery.
                    I'm pretty sure that your infantry division is closer to a WW2 armoured division than normal, and beyond that of even a Panzer Grenadier unit . In fact your tank strength is only one company shy of a US AD. Still, thats your choice .

                    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                    Look up the Bren L4. It was rechambered for 7.62 NATO which is almost the same as 30.06 US. That was actually done.
                    That Lmg was actually one of the two weapons I was actually extremely capable with. And yes, as I said in my note 1 above, I would take M1 Garands instead of LE 5.1 if both weapons fired the same round.
                    Originally posted by flash View Post
                    ...........The actual primary use of an LMG in the section/squad assault role is to keep the baddies heads down as your assault sections close in.
                    If I were a baddy in a trench and I had lost the firefight,ie,ducked! I wouldn't be counting the rounds smashing into the parapet,I would just need to know that to peek outside is a very bad idea indeed.
                    From the attackers POV a good steady and above all accurate and sustainable rate of fire is desired.The MG34/42 gobbles up ammo like nothing else and is simply not as sustainable as a magazine fed weapon.
                    10 rounds weigh about 1 Ibs in weight. A MG-34 weighs about 5Ibs more in weight than the Bren, ie the weight of around 100 rounds if two are in a section. As a General I personally would want my men to be able to carry more ammo. However, 2 Brens would be needed since it was found one does not have enough suppressive capability.

                    Originally posted by flash View Post
                    Defence-Belt fed.
                    Offence-Magazine.
                    Can't argue with that.
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                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Placeholder......I'll be posting my OOB this evening after work.
                      Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        GDP per capita in my neutral country is excess of the USA.....

                        Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                        I'm pretty sure that your infantry division is closer to a WW2 armoured division than normal, and beyond that of even a Panzer Grenadier unit . In fact your tank strength is only one company shy of a US AD. Still, thats your choice .
                        Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                        Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                        Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                        Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
                          GDP per capita in my neutral country is excess of the USA.....
                          Aha - it's either Aussie or NZ

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The platoon in my unit has three of the 12 man squads and a HQ section of 12 men. Platoon leader, assistant, 3 medics, and 7 "ordinaries" who can act as runners, stretcher bearers, etc., or replacements. A jeep with trailer is assigned. It carries a panzerschrek, 14 SMG's, and the platoon radio set in it. It is also intended to be used to evacuate casualties, bring ammo and supplies forward, and fulfill other such uses for the platoon.

                            The Company is three platoons plus a weapons platoon and a HQ and HQ platoon.

                            The weapons platoon contains:
                            HQ section

                            8 men, leader, assistant, 2 radio /comm men, 1 medic, 3 ordinaries. 1 radio and 2 telephones are supplied with wire. 1 3/4 truck and 1 jeep.

                            Mortar section
                            3 x 60mm Brandt or M1 mortars each with a 4 man crew and 3 jeeps with trailers.

                            Antitank section
                            2 x 7.5cm LG 40 Recoilless Rifles (HE + HEAT) with 3 man crew and 2 Jeeps with trailers.

                            Machinegun section:
                            2 x M1918A2 water cooled .30 machineguns with 4 man crews.
                            1 x M2 .50 machinegun (for DP use as an AA gun and fire support) with a 6 man crew.
                            3 jeeps with trailer are assigned.

                            The HQ section is the company commander, two assistants, and 2 men along with 2 jeeps.

                            The HQ platoon is:
                            M1 carbine issued to men

                            Admin section:
                            10 men (clerks and such) 1 2.5 ton truck.

                            Comm section: 6 men 2 jeeps with trailer carrying two radios and 1 12 position switchboard and 6 field telephones + wire.

                            Pioneer section:
                            12 men with M1 carbines + 2 chain saws, hand tools, 2 man posthole auger, mines and barbed wire etc., issued as required.
                            1 x 3/4 ton truck with trailer is assigned.

                            Supply section:
                            12 men with 1 2.5 ton moble mess vehicle, 2 2.5 ton 6 x 6 trucks for supply, 1 jeep.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              My Division:

                              Div HQ
                              Recon Bat - you wont see those...
                              Tank Bat - 45x T-34/85 (3x15), 3x Bergepanzer, 9x SdKfz 251 (Supply...)
                              AT Bat - 45x Su-85 (3x15), 3x SdKfz 251 (Inf Squads)
                              AA Bat - 36x 40mm Bofors (3x12)
                              Engineer Bat - something like in a US Inf Div.
                              3x Infantry Regts
                              3x Artillery Regts

                              Artillery Regt
                              2x Bat 12x 122mm M1938 (M-30) and 1x Bat 12x M114 155mm

                              Infantry Regt
                              Rgt HQ, 3x Bat, 12x120-PM-43 mortar

                              Battalion
                              Bat HQ, Mortar Company (12x 81mm), Recon Platoon (see above), Anti Tank Platoon (4x 7,5cm Pak), Signal Platoon, 3x Company

                              Company
                              HQ Squad, 3 Platoons

                              Platoon
                              3 Squads

                              Squad
                              12 men (1x MG34/42, 1x PzSchreck, 2x StG44, others Garand 7.92mm)
                              One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.

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