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  • Make a acceptable Peace Treaty with the UK.

    Your Hitler. You have just taken over France. You and the British have delegates in Zurich discussing a possible end of the war. Here is your challenge make the treaty acceptable enough to the British

  • #2
    Surrender.
    "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

    Comment


    • #3
      We know (The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich) that Hitler offered to guarantee the British Empire, and to limit his navy. His condition was that Germany keep its conquests, and hinted that it should get its old colonies back.

      Churchill was in charge and the British people were behind him. It wasn't enough. IMO. it would have taken at the very least for the Germans to pull out of Poland, France and the Benelux countries, and probably Norway, too.

      But Winnie didn't trust Adolf an ounce and rightfully so.

      Susie
      Will no one tell me what she sings?--
      Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
      For old, unhappy, far-off things,
      And battles long ago:
      -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

      Comment


      • #4
        We (Germany) will leave France, Norway, Denmark, Belgium, and Holland. As well as not increase the size of our navy (but only replace older ships) in exchange for a peace treaty which allows us to acquire military goods and raw materials at 20% cost from the above named countries as well as Britain.
        Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

        Comment


        • #5
          Lets get to haggling!

          (remember that if Hitler does not get something, he could get lynched by his own guys)

          Germany demands-
          100 million Pounds in reparations.
          OR the return of Tanzania to German Colonial status.

          The return of Papua New Guinea and German Samoa.

          Germany agrees to withdraw from Occupied France which is not to re-arm, within one year and will not to meddle in the affairs of Vichy France or its colonies in perpetuity. Germany will withdraw from BeNaLux without further ado or prejudice since those nations were merely an avenue that had to be traversed to reach France.
          However, in all cases and including Denmark, the pre-WW1 borders are to be returned to.
          No further reparations are expected from the above minor nations. However, the armaments of the above nations are not to exceed, as a combined total, exactly what Germany was reduced to post-WW1

          The UK and France acknowledge the changed status of the former Czech and Polish nations.

          Norway will not sign any mutual treaties with the UK, and it will hand over 1,000 acres in the Narvik area for the German military to use as a base for a lease of 50 years.

          Italy;
          Gains British Somaliland.
          Reperations; the burial cost of 5,000 men, and one cruiser and 3 Destroyers.

          Comment


          • #6
            My bet

            Poland is restored (but the Danzig corridor goes to the Reich) and has a government of German choice and in an alliance with the Reich.
            Vichy France gets all the french territory except Elsas-Lotharingia.
            An alliance against USSR is proposed to the British Empire.

            Guess those are the most liberal terms I can think of.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Backfire View Post
              Poland is restored (but the Danzig corridor goes to the Reich).
              How does Hitler get the Soviet Union out of Eastern Poland?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Aber View Post
                How does Hitler get the Soviet Union out of Eastern Poland?
                What for? Restoring Poland is just a "look how friendly I am" gesture. Sure thing, noone cares for the well-being of the Polish. So the supposedly restored Poland seems to get only as much of territory as Hitler has got and chooses to give.

                Comment


                • #9
                  So, Hitler is going hat in hand to London to ask for what? A truce between Britain and Germany?

                  What does Hitler want?

                  Firstly, the traditional alliances of Europe are all out the window. France is no longer there to back Romania, Poland, Jugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, and Germany's western neighbours. There remain only Germany, Britain and the USSR, in opposite corners of a triangular ring.

                  Most of all, Hitler wants a free hand in Eastern Europe, where he dreams of creating Hitlerland. The British will insist that Poland remain and there may be fruitful discussions about Danzig Corridor, giving Hitler an out. The Nazis have already succeeded in destabilizing several countries and installing Fascist puppet regimes, so Poland should not pose that great a challenge.

                  Hitler has economic needs. Firstly, it suits him to shed France, Belgium, Norway etc. and have them no longer dependent on Germany for oil, food, and other sundries. They need to run their own affairs and import their own needs mush as they did before the war. At the same time, he needs to appease the British and their American proto-allies that he is done with war and they can safely resume shipments of oil, in particular, and drop other sanctions on exports and Germany's overseas assets.

                  Politically, Hitler can probably sell that, confiscate the French Fleet and insist that the French military be restricted like the Reichswehr had been, and reach some agreement on military parity with the British. Ideally, he wants Hess' mission to succeed and be seated with a new government that he might entice into a strategic alliance against the Soviet Union.

                  So, we might have a situation where Germany pulls back from a demilitarized Western Europe, except for the construction of German bases at strategic points along the Atlantic. There will be pro-Nazi regimes in each country, but in the West, national borders will remain as they were except for Alsace-Lorraine. Poland will be renegotiated, with a pro-Nazi regime and a contiguous German corridor now from Pomerania to East Prussia where Poland has transit rights but not sovereignty.

                  Ultimately, Hitler will need the Poles to join him in his misadventures against the Red Army or risk British and American wrath all over again. However, he has a brilliant solution to get the Red Army out of Galicia: by rallying the Poles and British to join him in a New Crusade against the Bolsheviks! Hitler desperately needs oil to wage war against the USSR and this way he can get it direct from BP!

                  It's all rather fanciful. I think it very unlikely that any German overtures would be given more than a polite glance before being rudely dismissed. Short of palace coup replacing George with Edward, who might command Parliament dissolved and rule by fiat, I don't see it happening. There was too much anti-German hostility in Britain for it to be politically tenable there.

                  Anyway, those are my random thoughts.

                  Regards
                  Scott Fraser
                  Last edited by Scott Fraser; 16 Nov 13, 11:45.
                  Ignorance is not the lack of knowledge. It is the refusal to learn.

                  A contentedly cantankerous old fart

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    -White peace in the west, expect for the liberation of Elsaß-Lothringen.
                    -Westpreußen, Posen and Ostoberschlesien to Germany, with Poland as a puppet state.
                    -Nord-Schleswig to Germany.
                    -Free hand in the South to liberate Südtirol, Unterkrain and the Untersteiermark.
                    -Free hand against Bolshevism.
                    -Non-aggression pact for 10 years, which will automatically go another 10 when all parties agree
                    -Allies repay all money they robbed under the Versailles dictate
                    -Persecuted groups are allowed and encouraged to leave the country.

                    Propably a bit to much, but still the most desirable peace.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by bierbaron View Post
                      Propably a bit to much, but still the most desirable peace.
                      The question was not what was the most desirable peace for the Germans. The question was what would be acceptable for the British.

                      Generally speaking, when two countries are at war and the writing is not on the wall that one of them is going to be defeated soon and painfully, there is a reason why they can't come to an agreement, and the reason is usually the same why they have gone to war in the first place. The aims and intentions of the two are too far apart for reaching a midpoint compromise.

                      The situation in this specific case is further complicated by the fact that when two kings negotiated say in the 18th century, they would, to a certain extent, expect that each of them would keep to his own word if an agreement was reached.
                      On the contrary, in this case, Hitler has made abundantly clear that his signature is worth nothing. Any commitment by him to do or not to do something in the future is totally worthless.

                      So here's the peace offer that would be acceptable to Britain while Churchill is the PM in the summer of 1940:

                      - evacuate all occupied territories, including Czechoslovakia,
                      - pay reparations with most of the payment made in a very short time,
                      - reduce the armed forces to Versailles treaty levels (presumably this applies with the condition above, as the winners may take armaments as reparations),
                      - hold free elections in Germany.

                      Taking into account what I wrote above, Hitler would probably be able to get away later with curtailing the tail end of the reparation payments and with holding just sham elections. Churchill would be aware of this risk, but he would probably accept these conditions at face value.

                      Naturally, while Hitler might plan to do that later on, it's unlikely that he will actually survive until those sham elections. The generals will replace him (and, likewise, not pay the reparations to the full extent and not hold free elections).
                      Michele

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Scott Fraser View Post
                        So, Hitler is going hat in hand to London to ask for what? A truce between Britain and Germany?

                        What does Hitler want?

                        Firstly, the traditional alliances of Europe are all out the window. France is no longer there to back Romania, Poland, Jugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, and Germany's western neighbours. There remain only Germany, Britain and the USSR, in opposite corners of a triangular ring.

                        Most of all, Hitler wants a free hand in Eastern Europe, where he dreams of creating Hitlerland. The British will insist that Poland remain and there may be fruitful discussions about Danzig Corridor, giving Hitler an out. The Nazis have already succeeded in destabilizing several countries and installing Fascist puppet regimes, so Poland should not pose that great a challenge.

                        Hitler has economic needs. Firstly, it suits him to shed France, Belgium, Norway etc. and have them no longer dependent on Germany for oil, food, and other sundries. The need to run their own affairs and import their own needs mush as they did before the war. At the same time, he needs to appease the British and their American proto-allies that he is done with war and they can safely resume shipments of oil, in particular, and drop other sanctions on exports and Germany's overseas assets.

                        Politically, Hitler can probably sell that, confiscate the French Fleet and insist that the French military be restricted like the Reichswehr had been, and reach some agreement on military parity with the British. Ideally, he wants Hess' mission to succeed and be seated with a new government that he might entice into a strategic alliance against the Soviet Union.

                        So, we might have a situation where Germany pulls back from a demilitarized Western Europe, except for the construction of German bases at strategic points along the Atlantic. There will be pro-Nazi regimes in each country, but in the West, national borders will remain as they were except for Alsace-Lorraine. Poland will be renegotiated, with a pro-Nazi regime and a contiguous German corridor now from Pomerania to East Prussia where Poland has transit rights but not sovereignty.

                        Ultimately, Hitler will need the Poles to join him in his misadventures against the Red Army or risk British and American wrath all over again. However, he has a brilliant solution to get the Red Army out of Galicia: by rallying the Poles and British to join him in a New Crusade against the Bolsheviks! Hitler desperately needs oil to wage war against the USSR and this way he can get it direct from BP!

                        It's all rather fanciful. I think it very unlikely that any German overtures would be given more than a polite glance before being rudely dismissed. Short of palace coup replacing George with Edward, who might command Parliament dissolved and rule by fiat, I don't see it happening. There was too much anti-German hostility in Britain for it to be politically tenable there.

                        Anyway, those are my random thoughts.

                        Regards
                        Scott Fraser
                        I would endorse most of the above, with the proviso that even if Edward was reinstated (with Queen Wallis) he would be in no position to override Parliament. The Prime Minister, Lord Halifax ,would never permit it.

                        Fundamentally the treaty would be most reasonable- from a German point-of -view. In accordance with Hitler's oft-quoted sentiments the British Empire would be untouched, but the former German mandated territories in West Africa, East Africa and the Pacific would be returned to the Reich.

                        In Europe,in return for the evacuation of the Channel Islands, France, Benelux, Denmark and Norway, Germany's pre-1914 borders were to be reinstated vis-a-vis, France, Belgium and Denmark and Poland. The former Republic of Austria and the protectorate of Bohemia were to be incorporated within the Reich.

                        German sovereign naval bases were to be established at Trondheim(Norway) ,Antwerp (Belgium), and Brest (France).

                        Italy would gain Corsica, Nice,Savoy and Tunisia from France.

                        The whole thrust of the negotiations would be the Hitler's sincere (?) hope that the British Empire would become an ally. (The Fuhrer had an oddly 19th.century view of the British Empire, I think).

                        This objective would never be gained without a measure of reciprocity, so no monetary indemnities would be demanded.
                        "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                        Samuel Johnson.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          These are only fantasies :there never would be a peace treaty with Britain,because ,in such a treaty,Britain would become a German satellite .

                          Britain would demand inconditional surrender,from Hitler or his successor,of from a Germany led by the anti Nazi generals .

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Moved to Alternate Timelines
                            "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              As I said above the only acceptable peace for Britain was German surrender.

                              Britain's declared reason for war was Poland. In June 1940 not just Poland but nearly all of Europe was under German occupation or control. Britain could never accept that situation thus no peace is possible. It was victory or death.
                              It was not the first time Britain had stood alone against a tyrant controlling most of Europe. Britain had won then and would do so again in ww2. Churchill knew his history even if there were some faint hearts such as Lloyd George and Halifax.
                              "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                              Comment

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