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Assuming that the Allies get to rearm how strong are they in 41/42

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
    Up thread there is a post concerning French AFV and cannon development. Re: the G series & high velocity gun development. My limited knowledge of British development suggests they still would have been taking a close look at foreign made models at some point.

    For artillery the French & Brits were spinning up for production of artillery in the 10 to 20 cm calibers, all modern designs. In the case of the French a number of medium & heavy cannon were already well along in production. The French had a interest in what compatible cannon the US might have provided. While the old 75mm 1897 model would have remained in use en mass as a light artillery weapon of the infantry division new 105mm & 155mm caliber cannon would have reinforced the division & corps artillery on a large scale. The armored & related mechanized divisions were to have been entirely equipped with 105mm & larger caliber cannon.

    A back of the envelope calculation suggests the Brit/French ratio of all cannon: division, corps, army, to division HQ would have been north of 100 cannon per. For the German it would have likely remained well under 100 per HQ as in OTL.
    Artillery was the one area where the Allies (all of 'em) had a qualitative as well as quantitative advantage over the Germans. Allied guns of equivalent calibre tended to either fire a heavier shell the same range or the same weight further or both.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Scott Fraser View Post
      By the end of 1942? At least five thousand T-34s, a thousand KV-2s and two thousand KV-1s, supported by another thousand T-50s. British and American tank procurement was not as focused, but the Red Army knew what tanks they were going to build and eighteen months would have been enough time to build lots of them.

      Regards
      Scott Fraser
      I suppose at least a thousand of them would've been T-34M's and a few hundred KV-1's would've probably had their transmission improved to some extent. The T-50s, had they been built without serious teething problems, would've been a good match to most German tanks except 1942 model Pz III's and Pz IV's, both in terms of "hard" and "soft" factors. There was also an attempt to fit 107mm guns to KVs.
      www.histours.ru

      Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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      • #63
        I find it difficult to believe these: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/leichte...zkpfw-v-vi.htm

        ...are what the Germans had in development 1939-40. The PzKpfw NbFz VI and PzKpfw NbFz VI of Krupp look like dead ends. Unless there was something else ready for production by 1941 it looks like upgrades to the PzKpfw III & IV would be it. How fast were those underway in 1940-41 ?

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
          I find it difficult to believe these: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/leichte...zkpfw-v-vi.htm

          ...are what the Germans had in development 1939-40. The PzKpfw NbFz VI and PzKpfw NbFz VI of Krupp look like dead ends. Unless there was something else ready for production by 1941 it looks like upgrades to the PzKpfw III & IV would be it. How fast were those underway in 1940-41 ?
          They were not. The Pz.Kpfw.III was due to be upgunned, the 37mm replaced with a 50mm gun, however the Germans chose the short 50mm L/42 instead of the much better L/60. The Pz.Kpfw.IV was not considered a battle tank, so would likely have kept the short 75mm L/24. The Pz.Kpfw.I would be gone by 1942 and the Pz.Kpfw.II would not be nearly so important as they were due to be replaced with the Pz.Kpfw.III as they became available. The Neubaufahrzeuge was, as you point out, a dead end.

          Regards
          Scott Fraser
          Ignorance is not the lack of knowledge. It is the refusal to learn.

          A contentedly cantankerous old fart

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          • #65
            Hitler had ordered the Mark III to get a L/60 armament but the managers of the program substituted a L/42 cannon. I think Hitler would have sold the CZ-35 Tanks by 1941. There was a market for them in the Balkans (Hungary, Romania). There should have been enough Mark III's by then to replace them. Would some of the CZ-38 tanks have been taken away for training? Maybe some would have gone to Finland?

            Pruitt
            Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

            Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

            by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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            • #66
              If memory serves that the Germans were developing the Tiger at the time, i can't see why Germany would have not developed a heavy class tank with the massive 88mm PaK, if it not the Tiger then some other heavy to obliterate the British and French Tanks.

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              • #67
                Checked with the local tank guru on the subject of German heavy tanks. he first reminded me of the web site I had posted here earlier today. second he remarked about a couple other prototype "breakthrough" tanks that were to be in the 30-40 ton weight range and fitted with the same turret as the PzKfw IV. None of those prototypes were completed by 1940. Then he refered me to several books on the history of the Tiger tank, and told me they are essentialy summed up in this web site

                http://www.worldwar2aces.com/tiger-tank/

                The essential passages are these:

                Many had noted that the Tiger was conceived after the Germans encountered the Russian T-34 during the campaign on the east . This is not entirely accurate as the planning had already begun at a meeting with Hitler on 26th May, 1941. It was not until June 22nd, 1941 that Operation Barbarossa was launched. ...

                Going back further, German heavy tank development can be traced back to 1937 with the German Armaments Ministry issuing a specification for a new heavy tank to Daimler-Benz, Henschel, MAN and Porsche. This project however was ignored as the current Panzer III and IV had so far proved effective tanks and served well in combat. It was not until spring 1941 that the project was revived after Hitler was impressed with heavy allied tanks, such as the French Char B1 and British Matilda 1 during the campaign in the west.

                On May 26th May1941, during a Germans armament meeting, Hitler ordered for the creation of heavy Panzers which were to have an increased effectiveness to penetrate enemy tanks; possess heavier armor than was previously achieved; and attain a maximum speed of at least 40km/h.
                If this is accurate, and I have little reason to doubt Mr Siegs recomendations, then absent combat experience against the Allies the development of a tank heavier than the PzKfw IV would have been no faster than OTL.
                Last edited by Carl Schwamberg; 18 Nov 13, 20:04.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                  Checked with the local tank guru on the subject of German heavy tanks. he first reminded me of the web site I had posted here earlier today. second he remarked about a couple other prototype "breakthrough" tanks that were to be in the 30-40 ton weight range and fitted with the same turret as the PzKfw IV. None of those prototypes were completed by 1940. Then he refereed me to several books on the history of the Tiger tank, and told me they are essentialy summed up in this web site http://www.worldwar2aces.com/tiger-tank/
                  Actually, the T-34 and KV tanks were (probably) known to German intelligence prior to Barbarossa. In 1940, the T-34 prototypes had been displayed publicly and driven from Kharkov to Moscow, through the streets and then back to Kharkov via Minsk, all on public roads. KV were routinely loaded aboard flatcars at LKZ and shipped through Leningrad, uncovered, to their next destination.

                  I find the German claim that they did not know of these tanks to be rather disingenuous, especially in view of the exchange of information and technology that took place between the Red Army and Wehrmacht between September 1939 and June 1941. I suspect that information on these tanks was simply not appreciated or passed on as it should have been. Either that, or German intelligence was grossly inept...

                  Regards
                  Scott Fraser

                  Regards
                  Scott Fraser
                  Ignorance is not the lack of knowledge. It is the refusal to learn.

                  A contentedly cantankerous old fart

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                  • #69
                    My guess is the T-34 and KV-1 and 2 were not appreciated. The Germans had no idea their light antitank shells would bounce right off. The only weapons of use were 88 AAA and large Field Guns.

                    I think the Germans and Soviets were designing their antitank weapons to defeat their own tanks. While the Soviet 37mm antitank gun could handle the older Soviet Tanks, they had already began work on a 45mm replacement. Also the Soviet 76mm Field Gun was an outstanding antitank weapon. All Soviet Artillery was designed to fire on tanks. I have read accounts that claim the KV II could demolish a Mark III at close range.

                    Pruitt
                    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                      I think the Germans and Soviets were designing their antitank weapons to defeat their own tanks.
                      Well, not exactly. The Soviets simply couldn't believe the German armour is so thin while the Germans couldn't believe the opposite in the case of the Soviet armour.

                      While the Soviet 37mm antitank gun could handle the older Soviet Tanks, they had already began work on a 45mm replacement.
                      Pardon? There was no standard Soviet 37mm field gun, they started straight from 45mm in the early 1930s. If I'm not mistaken, it was developed upon the basis of the German 37mm gun and it became the standard caliber for both field pieces and tank guns.

                      Also the Soviet 76mm Field Gun was an outstanding antitank weapon.
                      By the start of the war there was a number of field 76mm guns in the service of the Red Army, however there was nothing particular about their ballistic qualities to make them great anti-tank weapons. There was the Zis-2 57mm gun which was indeed an anti-tank weapon ahead of its time.

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/57_mm_a...43_%28ZiS-2%29

                      All Soviet Artillery was designed to fire on tanks.
                      That's a rather strange statement: you can't really make all artillery "anti-tank capable".

                      I have read accounts that claim the KV II could demolish a Mark III at close range.
                      Well, it could be argued that a KV-2 could demolish a Tiger at close range, if it managed to shoot first and get close enough.
                      www.histours.ru

                      Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                        My guess is the T-34 and KV-1 and 2 were not appreciated. The Germans had no idea their light antitank shells would bounce right off. The only weapons of use were 88 AAA and large Field Guns.

                        I think the Germans and Soviets were designing their antitank weapons to defeat their own tanks. While the Soviet 37mm antitank gun could handle the older Soviet Tanks, they had already began work on a 45mm replacement. Also the Soviet 76mm Field Gun was an outstanding antitank weapon. All Soviet Artillery was designed to fire on tanks. I have read accounts that claim the KV II could demolish a Mark III at close range.

                        Pruitt
                        The Soviet 37mm gun was the Rheinmetall Borsig gun the Germans used. The Soviet 45mm M1937 Gun was the same gun rechambered for a larger round and was available in large numbers before the war. The larger 76.2mm (3 inch) F-22 Divisional Gun was a brilliant design, prized by the Germans, and led to the F-32 and F-34 used in the T-34 and the ZiS-5, installed in the KV-1 and later the SU-76, as well as being widely deployed as a replacement for the F-22.

                        As for the KV-2, at close range it could probably demolish a Königstiger. It had a big friggin gun! I was surprised to read recently that contrary what has been generally reported, in 1941s KV-2s were used alongside KV-1s in heavy tank brigades, not necessarily for demolishing enemy strongpoints.

                        Regards
                        Scott Fraser
                        Ignorance is not the lack of knowledge. It is the refusal to learn.

                        A contentedly cantankerous old fart

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          The Soviets also received a number 6 Pounder antitank guns from the UK. I think the Soviets built their own as a 57mm AT Gun.

                          Pruitt
                          Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                          Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                          by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                            The Soviets also received a number 6 Pounder antitank guns from the UK. I think the Soviets built their own as a 57mm AT Gun.

                            Pruitt
                            The 57mm ZiS-2 / ZiS-4 was another Grabin design, dating from 1940. It was an excellent anti-tank gun, although development was halted for political reasons in 1941 after only a few hundred had been built. It was restored to production in 1943 and became a standard light AT gun in the last half of the war. It was deemed unsuitable for tanks due to inferior HE performance compared to the 76mm F-34 and ZiS-5.

                            The British QF 6-pdr was adopted, modified and built under license for the US Army as the 57mm M1 Anti-Tank Gun.

                            Regards
                            Scott Fraser
                            Ignorance is not the lack of knowledge. It is the refusal to learn.

                            A contentedly cantankerous old fart

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