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  • CarpeDiem
    replied
    Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
    So the point that comes across is that frisco17 is a bit confused as to what the actual situation was on Okinawa, and we really have no clear idea as to how the Japanese civilians would have behaved had the home islands been invaded.
    I would agree that drawing a direct comparison between the behavior of the Okinawans and the possible behavior of the Japanese civilians would be unwise, given their different cultural backgrounds and the difference in how the Japanese armed forces and government treated and saw the two groups.

    Leave a comment:


  • broderickwells
    replied
    Originally posted by CarpeDiem View Post
    The Wikipedia article on Okinawa does a decent job of summarizing the situation of the civilians.

    From the page:






    The fate of the Okinawan civilians is a source of controversy in Japan up to the present day.

    Compulsory Mass Suicide, the Battle of Okinawa, and Japan's Textbook Controversy

    Historians battle over Okinawa WW2 mass suicides

    Okinawa Suicides and Japan's Army: Burying the Truth?

    1945 suicide order still a trauma on Okinawa

    A bright spot from an otherwise tragic event:
    Defiant soldier saved lives of hundreds of civilians during Okinawa battle
    Originally posted by Salinator View Post
    The people of Okinawa claim greater heritage from China than from Japan. It was a tributary of China and at one time Okinawan officals were Fujian Chinese sent by The Ming at the request of the Okinawans.

    The Okinawans were noted by those Chinese and later the European explorers to be extremely hospitable. When they were invaded by the Japanese in 1609, the Ryuku King order his people not to fight, declaring life itself was the most precious treasure. When Japan closed itself to the outside world (minus the Dutch) Okinawa and Nagasaki provided the only place of contacts they had with the outside world. Okinawa was especially useful because China only traded with tributaries, and Okinawa was still paying China tribute...............so they got to deal through Okinawa all the trade that was controlled by the China........the superpower of that time. And guess what...........now that China is regaining her lost glory and power, the Okinawans are beginning to push for secession fro Japan.

    There was no love lost between Okinawa and Japan. First, weapons were banned to Okinawans, providing the inspiration of creating KARATE. And then Han was forbidden and to brainwash the population, every single education dept official came straight out of Japan.

    Don't seem like the Okinawan people share the views of life and death as the Japanese.
    So the point that comes across is that frisco17 is a bit confused as to what the actual situation was on Okinawa, and we really have no clear idea as to how the Japanese civilians would have behaved had the home islands been invaded.

    Leave a comment:


  • Salinator
    replied
    Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
    Did the Okinawans actually fight for Okinawa, or did they merely join in the mass suicides?
    The people of Okinawa claim greater heritage from China than from Japan. It was a tributary of China and at one time Okinawan officals were Fujian Chinese sent by The Ming at the request of the Okinawans.

    The Okinawans were noted by those Chinese and later the European explorers to be extremely hospitable. When they were invaded by the Japanese in 1609, the Ryuku King ordered his people not to fight, declaring life itself was the most precious treasure. When Japan closed itself to the outside world (minus the Dutch) Okinawa and Nagasaki provided the only places of contact they had with the outside world. Okinawa was especially useful because China only traded with tributaries, and Okinawa was still paying China tribute...............so Japan got to deal through Okinawa all the trade that was controlled by the China........the superpower of that time. And guess what...........now that China is regaining her lost glory and power, the Okinawans are beginning to push for secession from Japan.

    There was no love lost between Okinawa and Japan. First, weapons were banned to Okinawans, providing the inspiration of creating KARATE. And then Han was forbidden and to brainwash the population, every single education dept official came straight out of Japan.

    Don't seem like the Okinawan people share the views of life and death as the Japanese.
    Last edited by Salinator; 18 Oct 13, 20:09.

    Leave a comment:


  • CarpeDiem
    replied
    Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
    Did the Okinawans actually fight for Okinawa, or did they merely join in the mass suicides?
    The Wikipedia article on Okinawa does a decent job of summarizing the situation of the civilians.

    From the page:
    Thirty thousand of the Okinawan civilians killed had been drafted or impressed by the Japanese army and are often counted as combat deaths.
    Many of the prisoners were native Okinawans who had been pressed into service shortly before the battle and were less imbued with the Imperial Japanese Army's no-surrender doctrine.
    In its history of the war, the Okinawa Prefectural Peace Memorial Museum[41] presents Okinawa as being caught in the fighting between America and Japan. During the 1945 battle, the Japanese Army showed indifference to Okinawa's defense and safety, and the Japanese soldiers used civilians as human shields against the Americans. Japanese military confiscated food from the Okinawans and executed those who hid it, leading to a mass starvation among the population, and forced civilians out of their shelters. Japanese soldiers also killed about 1,000 people who spoke in the Okinawan language in order to suppress spying
    The fate of the Okinawan civilians is a source of controversy in Japan up to the present day.

    Compulsory Mass Suicide, the Battle of Okinawa, and Japan's Textbook Controversy

    Historians battle over Okinawa WW2 mass suicides

    Okinawa Suicides and Japan's Army: Burying the Truth?

    1945 suicide order still a trauma on Okinawa

    A bright spot from an otherwise tragic event:
    Defiant soldier saved lives of hundreds of civilians during Okinawa battle

    Leave a comment:


  • Roddoss72
    replied
    Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
    Did the Okinawans actually fight for Okinawa, or did they merely join in the mass suicides?
    Who know's.

    Leave a comment:


  • broderickwells
    replied
    Originally posted by frisco17 View Post
    Exactly.
    Did the Okinawans actually fight for Okinawa, or did they merely join in the mass suicides?

    Leave a comment:


  • frisco17
    replied
    Exactly.

    Leave a comment:


  • Salinator
    replied
    Originally posted by frisco17 View Post
    That is exactly the point. People can be made to believe anything with all their heart, given enough time and energy. You only need to look at Okinawa to see how effective their indoctrination was. That point alone is why invading Japan would have been a nightmare.
    Don't forget that the Okanawans do not consider themselves to be Japanese and in an entirely different ethnic group. Think how much harder the "real Japanese" would have fought on the four home Islands.

    Leave a comment:


  • frisco17
    replied
    That is exactly the point. People can be made to believe anything with all their heart, given enough time and energy. You only need to look at Okinawa to see how effective their indoctrination was. That point alone is why invading Japan would have been a nightmare.

    Leave a comment:


  • Roddoss72
    replied
    Originally posted by Michele View Post
    See? It wasn't that difficult. I told you that you could get around to acknowledging you were wrong.




    No. Read more carefully. I never concluded anything of the sort. I did conclude that when you are malnourished or starving, running into waist-high Ocean waves with a load is hard. Drawing a bow is hard.

    You don't need to take my word for this. Create for yourself a number of physical exercise tests, and take down performance notes every time you perform them. Eat just 1,200 calories a day for eight months, repeating the same exercises every month. Then come back and we'll discuss your declining performance.
    Oh, make sure to take integrators. The Japanese were suffering from beriberi and other malnutrition-linked diseases, for lack of vitamins etc. We will see you much much much leaner, but we don't want you to fall ill, do we.
    I agree, absolutely with your comment.

    Let me ask you this hypothetical, say you were in the same position as the Japanese and you are sick becuase of malnutritian, but your Island nation is about to be invaded and your cultural belief has you convinced that your Emperor is a living god, and you have from birth accept laying down your life for the Emperor without question, in fact dying in battle will release you to join your ancestors, this is indoctrinated in you from birth, would you still crawl out of your sickbed and fight?

    Would you find the energy from within to take up arms against the invader, if you can take out one or two of the invaders before being killed, would it from a cultural standpoint be worth it?

    Also would you, not follow the orders of a living god, even it meant ultimate sacrifice?

    I would in all cases, i would crawl out of my sickbed and even carried to my aircraft, by the grace of the Emperor i will fly my aircraft into the guts of an American troop transport hopefully taking 10,000 troops with me, then once my duty is over i will ascend to heaven and rejoin my ancestors, praising the Emperor.

    Hopefully you can see at least that side of it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michele
    replied
    Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
    I looked at the doccument and it does not state the caloric intake of the Japanese, therefore i have accepted your numbers as fact.
    See? It wasn't that difficult. I told you that you could get around to acknowledging you were wrong.


    But in all the discussions i have had with a multitude of folks about this issue, none of them have made the caloric count of those in Japan a major sticking point in the carry out of Operation Downfall as a whole or part, except for one individual YOU, and it seems to an impassible object to any discussion, you concluded that the caloric count proves positive that the Japanese can't defend themselves.
    No. Read more carefully. I never concluded anything of the sort. I did conclude that when you are malnourished or starving, running into waist-high Ocean waves with a load is hard. Drawing a bow is hard.

    You don't need to take my word for this. Create for yourself a number of physical exercise tests, and take down performance notes every time you perform them. Eat just 1,200 calories a day for eight months, repeating the same exercises every month. Then come back and we'll discuss your declining performance.
    Oh, make sure to take integrators. The Japanese were suffering from beriberi and other malnutrition-linked diseases, for lack of vitamins etc. We will see you much much much leaner, but we don't want you to fall ill, do we.

    Leave a comment:


  • ShAA
    replied
    Originally posted by tigersqn View Post
    Which is exactly how the Fortified Regions were set up. As ISOLATED areas of strong defences.
    So what are you arguing about? That they were useless? That the ones who built them had no clue they could be bypassed? The Japanese weren't idiots and they knew where to build these defenses in order not to squander their resources over vast areas of terrain deemed completely unsuitable for offensive operations.

    You really should learn to read the entire quote and to put it in its proper context.
    Grasping for straws, ain't we?

    Rokossovsy had shown in the Bagration offensive before Bobruisk, that the Red Army had a great deal of experience in mounting offensive operations in quite demanding terrain. For the Red Army to mount an offensive along the Manchurian border may have been challenging, but it was certainly nothing beyond their proven skills.
    Okay, let's try it in a different way. For a superman, to fly is no big deal. However, the ability of flight is not expected to be displayed by anyone, not it should be considered to be anything "easy". So when your opponent starts to fly, you can't say that "this is easy, cause you're superman". Being a superman isn't "easy", that's what I meant.

    And I still do certainly maintain that to compare the fortifications of the Fortified regions with those of Iwo Jima, Peleliu, Tarawa, etc... can most assuredly be considered disingenuous.
    The descriptions of the fortified regions I've found are quite sinilar to those which the Americans have found on the islands. I'll try to find more detailed information to make a valid comparison. So far googling hasn't worked well, I'll have to browse through some books.

    Leave a comment:


  • Roddoss72
    replied
    Originally posted by Michele View Post
    No, my dear friend, I don't think they are liars. What I think about post-war US analysis of this hypothetical operation is that it may well have been slanted towards making it more difficult than it actually would be, for the obvious reason that by that time, justifying the decision to use the nukes was an important political consideration.

    That said, I think these studies might somewhat emphasize the difficulties; I won't say that they'd lie.

    What I'll say, OTOH, is that you do not understand what we are talking about here. I'll sum it up, once, in order to help you.

    1. I posted detailed, accurate information from multiple reliable sources providing plenty of indication that the Japanese civilians, and to some extent the Japanese soldiers too, were suffering from malnutrition, when not on the verge of starvation.

    2. You replied by saying, verbatim:


    3. Therefore I asked you whether the official documents, in particular the plans - i.e. things based on wartime intelligence estimates - mentioned anywhere that the Japanese were eating better than my sources - serious sources, not "wikipedia" as you wildly flailed - had indicated. I did not ask about numbers of aircraft set aside for kamikazes; I did not ask about plans for bamboo spears and wooden bows; since I had only talked about caloric intake, I asked about caloric intake. Since you foolishly claimed that the caloric intake was not as I described, "according to the official documents", I asked for a quote.

    4. You utterly, hopelessly failed to provide one quote from the documents you claim you read that would state that the Japanese were eating better than what m sources stated.

    I hope you had no further problems understanding this. Now just be a grown-up.
    I looked at the doccument and it does not state the caloric intake of the Japanese, therefore i have accepted your numbers as fact.

    The doccument only covers the Japanese home island defenses and what the Allies were facing if Operation Downfall had gone ahead, even this the Secretary of War's department concluded that a worse case scenario that taking in all information available at the time the US alone would suffer (in a worse case scenario) 800,000 killed in action, with a further 1.1 million casualties.

    But in all the discussions i have had with a multitude of folks about this issue, none of them have made the caloric count of those in Japan a major sticking point in the carry out of Operation Downfall as a whole or part, except for one individual YOU, and it seems to an impassible object to any discussion, you concluded that the caloric count proves positive that the Japanese can't defend themselves.

    Even though the Japanese Army at the time had 100+ home division, 10 million in its civillian militia, approximately 10,000 aircraft slated for kamikaze mission, all that means nothing.

    Also you failed to also comprehend the nature of the beast of the Japanese and that it is culture, you have no comprehension of the Japanese of the time, thousands had alread sacrificed themselves in Okinawa and Iwo Jima, and millions more would do exactly the same in the name of the Emperor, regardless of caloric intake, they are going to kill themselves in droves, and as long as they have the strength to carry out their mission one last time, then they go knowing they will meet their acestors in heaven.

    Leave a comment:


  • tigersqn
    replied
    Originally posted by ShAA View Post
    Do you actually know how defenses are built? To your knowledge, troops are placed at the most probable directions of enemy attack in order not to disperse them around the entire perimeter. SPOTS are essential pockets of resistance organised by any commander of any army unless he's got several divisions to cover every kilometer.

    Which is exactly how the Fortified Regions were set up. As ISOLATED areas of strong defences.

    Yes, "easily bypassed" is what I called disingenuous BS in my last statement and brought up a quote to buttress my argument. The Japanese didn't expect any Soviet attacks in the sectors they considered impassable for tanks, and therefore the resistance there was very light. But this is what any smart commander would do - the problem was that the Red Army appeared capable of such logistical feat the Japanese couldn't even imagine. Once again, these fortified regions could not be "easily bypassed", and if you still have doubts why, please re-read that quote by Glantz again.

    You really should learn to read the entire quote and to put it in its proper context.

    Rokossovsy had shown in the Bagration offensive before Bobruisk, that the Red Army had a great deal of experience in mounting offensive operations in quite demanding terrain. For the Red Army to mount an offensive along the Manchurian border may have been challenging, but it was certainly nothing beyond their proven skills.

    And I still do certainly maintain that to compare the fortifications of the Fortified regions with those of Iwo Jima, Peleliu, Tarawa, etc... can most assuredly be considered disingenuous.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michele
    replied
    Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
    can't help if Michele has decided to declare the Secretary of War and his department out and out liars.
    No, my dear friend, I don't think they are liars. What I think about post-war US analysis of this hypothetical operation is that it may well have been slanted towards making it more difficult than it actually would be, for the obvious reason that by that time, justifying the decision to use the nukes was an important political consideration.

    That said, I think these studies might somewhat emphasize the difficulties; I won't say that they'd lie.

    What I'll say, OTOH, is that you do not understand what we are talking about here. I'll sum it up, once, in order to help you.

    1. I posted detailed, accurate information from multiple reliable sources providing plenty of indication that the Japanese civilians, and to some extent the Japanese soldiers too, were suffering from malnutrition, when not on the verge of starvation.

    2. You replied by saying, verbatim:
    Not according the official doccuments pertaining to Operation Downfall, i have seen the plans and the subsequent studies on what the Japanese had, so unless you are calling the American Millitary experts liars then i suggest you read the official doccuments, instead of wikipedia.
    3. Therefore I asked you whether the official documents, in particular the plans - i.e. things based on wartime intelligence estimates - mentioned anywhere that the Japanese were eating better than my sources - serious sources, not "wikipedia" as you wildly flailed - had indicated. I did not ask about numbers of aircraft set aside for kamikazes; I did not ask about plans for bamboo spears and wooden bows; since I had only talked about caloric intake, I asked about caloric intake. Since you foolishly claimed that the caloric intake was not as I described, "according to the official documents", I asked for a quote.

    4. You utterly, hopelessly failed to provide one quote from the documents you claim you read that would state that the Japanese were eating better than what m sources stated.

    I hope you had no further problems understanding this. Now just be a grown-up.

    Leave a comment:

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